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Third Edition in Retrospect, Thus Far

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  • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Mostly I find the DMG a waste of time (I used it like twice in my last game, for magic items), but in some ways Exalted is a harder game to run; characters are less balanced in terms of combat, there's no Challenge Rating, etc. There's also a lot more ST adjudication, for example sorcerous workings. So I can see the value there, and I know Vance and Minton are very keen on doing one.
    Oh really? That’s fascinating, I’ve used it for everything from finding out how much it costs to build a castle to what exactly are the in-game effects when a character spends 3 straight months carousing. Also alternate healing and spell regeneration rules.


    That’s kind of what I’d want out of exalted, examples or guidelines on what exactly the leadership system can do, even if that boils down to “here are three decent ways to run those kind of projects.” Or you might have a section on how to properly use battlegroups, like for instance how a group of 4 bodyguards should be run as a size 1 BG otherwise they’re way more of a liability than a benefit.

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    • Originally posted by Alpharius View Post

      That isn't weirdly paranoid and somewhat crazy at all!
      Well, he was one of those who could have leaked it (I don't think he did, but how would I know), so I can kind of understand why they did it... But the charms section really could have done with an external editor.


      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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      • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

        I do a bit, but at level 4 I don't have a ton of options*. Sometimes I levitate enemies, but then the combat characters can't reach them. Also, one of the girls in the group is playing a bard, and she does a lot of buffing/debuffing/battlefield control (sleep, etc).
        Ah gotcha, yeah give it a few levels and see how it changes

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
        But the game doesn't support social characters with many interesting things to do besides "have a high skill rating". Princess Evylyn rolls high rolls for diplomacy, Xenophon (my wizard) gets high rolls for knowledge, and Blaze rolls high for stealth and theft, but the game doesn't give us much to do with that beyond the skill checks. That's where Exalted stands out.
        Completely agree


        "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

        "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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        • Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post

          Completely agree
          I also agree. I also find that the heavy combat focus of the current game is a detriment to the game. Arms of the chosen was what 80% of the books, it was a huge waste IMO. Combat has personally been the most boring part of the game for me and to emphasize it more seems like a waste.

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          • I loved Arms, it had a lot of cool lore and ideas in the evocation mechanics that are helping me out as a GM when it comes to figuring out ways to pair desired effects and themes.

            That post he was replying too was specifically about the encounter focused nature of Dungeons and Dragons compared to Exalted having actual social investment anyway.

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            • Yeah, I was saying DnD doesn't give social characters much to do besides roll a D20 for Persuasion or Deception (or Diplomacy and Bluff in older versions).

              Sure, Arms was mostly combat, but the Core book has lots of social charms (though I think the DB social charms are more interesting; but the point stands for, say, Investigation. My DnD character has +7 Investigation and a couple of Divination spells, but my Zenith can detect lies/scope out a scene in 5 seconds/make people give up a confession/put tiny clues together like Sherlock Holmes/etc).

              Arms... I actually liked Arms too, in terms of lore and ideas. And art, actually.

              I would have preferred a book less focused on combat (say, Dragonblood), but for a book mostly about combat, it was very good.
              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-11-2019, 01:21 PM.


              "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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              • Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                Yeah, I was saying DnD doesn't give social characters much to do besides roll a D20 for Persuasion or Deception (or Diplomacy and Bluff in older versions).

                Sure, Arms was mostly combat, but the Core book has lots of social charms (though I think the DB social charms are more interesting; but the point stands for, say, Investigation. My DnD character has +7 Investigation and a couple of Divination spells, but my Zenith can detect lies/scope out a scene in 5 seconds/make people give up a confession/put tiny clues together like Sherlock Holmes/etc).

                Arms... I actually liked Arms too, in terms of lore and ideas. And art, actually.

                I would have preferred a book less focused on combat (say, Dragonblood), but for a book mostly about combat, it was very good.
                My problem is that i feel like combat gets too much of a focus and arms was terrible at showing non-combat artifacts. The emphasis on combat in 3e is rather absurd. Which is where my opinion of exalted compared to d&d comes in because D&D felt like a combat heavy game that works. Whereas exalted excelled at storytelling.

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                • I'm going to counter that this is the first edition with a social system I have ever invested thought in as well as the combat rules. 2e was kind of a mess that hurt my brain when you started cutting into its rules there.

                  Exalted is definitely loaded with combat options and items of course, not disputing that.

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                  • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                    My problem is that i feel like combat gets too much of a focus and arms was terrible at showing non-combat artifacts. The emphasis on combat in 3e is rather absurd. Which is where my opinion of exalted compared to d&d comes in because D&D felt like a combat heavy game that works. Whereas exalted excelled at storytelling.
                    I'd like to make a little distinction here, something getting more raw wordcount then something else doesn't mean the smaller thing isnt important, so long as it gets the material it does need.

                    To use an example, the actual investigation rules are quite simplistic. They amount to about a page total and only really include profile character and case scene, but that's all they really need. That little mechanical framework is all you actually need to build fleshed out investigation and larceny charm sets. You can still play the detective character and have fun toys to play with when you do.

                    So yes combat has more word count dedicated to it (mainly because the consequences of combat are so much more severe then an investigation scene or anything else) but I don't see how that in any way detracts from the fact that there is indeed a full charm set for these other things out there for you to build a character around

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                    • At the end of the day, while combat trees have more charms than non-combat trees (except Craft), the proportion I think is actually better than 2nd ed. In 2nd ed, quite a few of the Twilight, Night and Eclipse charm trees literally had, not counting excellencies, 5 charms. 5. That's less than a Martial Art.
                      So, while combat still has more, I feel the balance is actually better.


                      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                      • I'm of two minds in response to the comment about Arms.

                        One is that the nature of the magic of a lot of the things in the first part is that, while their concepts are applied through the lens of combat, many of them clearly have wide applications beyond combat, from the Distaff's use in healing, crafting and entangling, up to the Forgotten Blade cultivating memories like a bonsai.

                        The other mind is sympathetic to the argument that such applications lend themselves to divesting the Artifacts of combat applications altogether, although personally I've developed a fondness for the sense that a lot of those things take the role of ceremonial weapons to represent various kinds of task or office, that remain perfectly functional as weapons.

                        Either way, the depth, nuance and creativity on display there, producing the most compelling magical items in anything ever, hardly make the effort wasted.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                        • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                          My problem is that i feel like combat gets too much of a focus and arms was terrible at showing non-combat artifacts. The emphasis on combat in 3e is rather absurd. Which is where my opinion of exalted compared to d&d comes in because D&D felt like a combat heavy game that works. Whereas exalted excelled at storytelling.
                          I agree with all of this. I love the content in Arms. LOVE it. Find all of the fluff MUCH more interesting than any of the Core artifacts except maybe Volcano Cutter and got great ideas for creating the stories of Artifacts in general. Even so, and even with the overall removal of Magitech, I did want to see more non-combat Artifacts. I get they're not as "sexy" since they are unlike to call forth Evocations, but still.


                          "Chicanery-No: If a player uses this Charm in an abusive or exploitative manner, the ST may punch him right in the goddamn face." --TheDementedOne

                          "Happiness is very brittle and short-lived in the Exalted community, because ressentiment is our cultural touchstone." --Gayo

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                          • Originally posted by Zelbinnean View Post

                            I agree with all of this. I love the content in Arms. LOVE it. Find all of the fluff MUCH more interesting than any of the Core artifacts except maybe Volcano Cutter and got great ideas for creating the stories of Artifacts in general. Even so, and even with the overall removal of Magitech, I did want to see more non-combat Artifacts. I get they're not as "sexy" since they are unlike to call forth Evocations, but still.
                            Noncombat artifacts should still have evocations. My biggest issue is that there are no noncombat artifacts that have a good set of evocations when there is nothing preventing that. It's hard to judge how to make them that when the only thing we get are weapons.

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                            • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                              Noncombat artifacts should still have evocations. My biggest issue is that there are no noncombat artifacts that have a good set of evocations when there is nothing preventing that. It's hard to judge how to make them that when the only thing we get are weapons.
                              No love for Wings of the Raptor, I see.

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                              • Wings of the Raptor is cool. I also liked those drums that controlled hungry ghosts.

                                There are non-combat artefacts, though they have quite short evocation trees.
                                And, as Isator mentioned, there are magic weapons with non-combat evocations; the Distaff and Asphodel spring to mind.

                                Still, I'd estimate that 75-90% of the evocations are for combat.


                                "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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