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Third Edition in Retrospect, Thus Far

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  • #31
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post

    Cons:
    -It feels pretty irksome at times to go on forums and see people bad-mouthing the very aspects you're praising.
    Welcome to the life of the 2e fan ^^ *passes drink*

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    • #32
      Originally posted by squidheadjax View Post
      Not really an exhaustive list on either side, but:

      Pro:
      -DBs actually feel like Exalts
      -Combat is not perfect-spam
      -Social system has texture without being a combat analogue
      -Most setting changes
      -The idea, if not execution, of Evocations
      -Lunars have a role in the setting

      Cons:
      -Crafting
      -Needing to homebrew charm trees to make Artifacts worth it and, for some characters, to have a useful outlet for half your XP - and not getting a system to help people who aren't good at homebrew (yet)
      -Crafting
      -Transferability of momentum (but I'm not sure how to make a comprehensible fix)
      -Really dull fights between high soak opponents
      -Deprecating magitech
      -Crafting
      I agree with these but I will also add that I think the supernal keyword sucks. Exalted pretends it's supposed to be about underdogs but the characters don't start out as underdogs as they have everything they need to be king at something from start. In addition, there are more issues with the charmset than just crafting . Persona charms are unusable until you have hundreds of xp. They also do too much and at the same time too little. I get what they were going for but it does not work at all I spent several sessions of my game trying but it was bad. There are also a couple more trees that are just gross or underwhelming in practice.

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      • #33
        I don't think Exalted comes even remotely close to pretending the characters are anything but god-kings.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
          Persona charms are unusable until you have hundreds of xp. They also do too much and at the same time too little. I get what they were going for but it does not work at all I spent several sessions of my game trying but it was bad.
          What do you want to use them for?


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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          • #35
            I'd call the combat system both a pro and a con, for me. That's why I was inspired to try my hand improving it with Momentum. Definitely, out of being deeply impressed with where it was going and what it was trying to do.

            In the pro side, the intent of the cinematic combat is the most innovative gaming idea I've seen in a long time. Once my gaming group and I chewed through the rules enough to see the intent and the motion in the system, it really was a perception changer. We started noticing the features of, for instance, kung-fu movies in Ex3 terminology.... that was a withering stunt, this was a decisive attack, that other was an interesting gambit.

            On the con side, the combat system has a lot.... a loooooot of extraneous things to deal with. Every time somebody takes an action, somebody (probably the ST, who's already really busy) has to come out of the action, then do accurate arithmetic, then do accurate sorting and bypassing to choose the next combatant. If the arithmetic is wrong, the person doing the arithmetic, sort, bypass probably has to drop everything out of their head and back up several steps to start over. There are numbers of turns (such as being crashed) to track. There are effects that adjust your turn order overriding the turn order you've just reckoned out. There is a major combat subsystem (Gambits/Decisives) that disregards a major game mechanic (double 10s for everything) and also has a -1 (cost of a Gambit in Initiative points) to continually forget. Not to mention keeping up with dice tricks (roll a yahtzee of successes to trigger a Charm), Essence for everybody and Health for everybody.

            A normal human can keep track of seven things in short-term memory, +- about three. The core combat system goes way beyond that for any but the very simplest of combats, so the entire time you're at it, you'll have to keep on looking things up, re-reckoning them, or recalling them.... and the combat system completely hits the rocks and comes to a halt.

            That sounds like it's weighed on the cons, but it really isn't, at least for me. I'm trying to be specific about the cons here, because we'd have never crunched through them or ironed them out if not for the fantastically innovated and cinematic idea underpinning combat.



            A few other things I've liked but not seen mentioned: I really like that you can get an XP award for setting up your friends to rock the Scene. I also like the new stunting system and Essence economy.

            I like that there's a way to introduce facts.

            There was another game that came out a few years ago - I forget the name unfortunately - that was built around a system like that. The really innovative thing about that particular game was that the GM started off with a list of facts about some mystery or other, to which the players are not privy. The players would be introduced to the situation, and through the course of using their skills and descriptions, write in their own facts. The more of their own facts they prove, the more they rewrite the truth of the story and ultimately the more XP/mojo points they would be awarded.

            I mention that game because I can't help but feel that Abilities like Lore, Investigation, Craft, Occult, perhaps even Survival or Bureaucracy, should have some sort of unifying system underpinning them all together. The Storyteller would know the facts (or the challenges) of the situation, and by using those Abilities the character could introduce facts (or overcome challenges, or create a crafted solution) to overcome whatever obstacle.

            Where combat has a plethora of Abilities that all interact, and social has Abilities and its own system, braining your way to a solution seems to just vary widely from "glad I knew that" to a multi-tiered system with its own system of XP and project slots that's not similar to anything else.




            Your Monkey Leap distance may vary. I'm having a lot of fun though!



            Check out Momentum Exalted!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
              Persona charms are unusable until you have hundreds of xp.
              As a person playing an Eclipse that started with persona Charms, I respectfully disagree.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Simon Darkstep View Post
                A normal human can keep track of seven things in short-term memory, +- about three. The core combat system goes way beyond that for any but the very simplest of combats, so the entire time you're at it, you'll have to keep on looking things up, re-reckoning them, or recalling them.... and the combat system completely hits the rocks and comes to a halt.
                I should also mention that our group had major problems with this as well until we came up with physical solutions, so that should factor into my pro/cons. A particularly crafty member of our group, like in real life, build a little board with moveable tiles and a big double-wide number line for initiative. Now whenever we go into combat a tile with each of our names on it goes onto the board and a tile with enemies A to up to G gets placed too. That way whenever we shuffle anything around it becomes obvious if they need to take an immediate turn, or how deadly the foe's current initiative is at. We tend to use Theatre of the Mind, so it takes the place of a combat map.

                Also we have two forms of morte/willpower counting for the taste of the player in question. One is an abacus with several different sections and colours that you can shuffle around for each of those pools. Another is a 4 section subdivided box, with larger coloured beads, and pools for willpower, personal, peripheral, and discarded motes. That way you also get the visceral feeling of picking up a mitt full of motes and willpower and tumbling them into the "Spent" box before pulling off your epic move.

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                • #38
                  Unfortunately my experiences have been pretty close to those of Gonzo and Croakamancer, at least for how the system works. I've had fun playing (well, mostly running) 3E, sure, but I've had more fun running the Exalted setting using non-Exalted systems lately.

                  Pros:

                  1. The intent of cinematic combat with the withering/decisive is quite interesting.
                  2. A lot of the side systems are good in concept, if not always in execution. Investigation, sorcery and sorcerous workings, and many of the social influence systems are both interesting and seem to work well in play. Others, like craft, are at least interesting ideas.
                  3. Exalted continues to have one of my favorite settings, and I do love a lot of the locations and ideas added in 3E.
                  4. Some fixes from 2E. More or less removing perfects was probably a good call, for example.

                  Cons:

                  1. Far too little official material. I don't have time to write my own Evocation trees, try to get together the still missing splats that are pretty central to the Exalted setting, or other in depth rewrites that I might have been inclined to do when I was a younger person with more free time. As a GM, that means I'm limited to a very narrow range of options when it comes to opposing a group of Solar level characters, and I don't have a huge inclination to put down $2 per NPC sheet sight unseen either. 3E has been available for sale for almost three years and has exactly two published books. I'd need at least a new collection of sample non-Solar Exalts to ever consider running 3E again.
                  2. Many of the Pro category up above seem like good ideas, but it's hard to agree on which ones work out in execution as well as they look on paper. I've had several groups say that the withering/decisive thing still wasn't working out for them after 3-4 sessions, which seems to not really jive with the overall community experience here, so I don't know what we were doing differently. Likewise, I know I will never touch the as-written craft system ever again, but I also know there are people here who love it. I'm not sure why they even wasted the wordcount on the leadership "system", since it basically boils down to "figure it out yourself" spaced out over three pages.
                  3. Reconciling setting information for three editions of Exalted across multiple writing teams is getting harder and harder, which is problematic for a group that has some players who go back to 1E and some who are jumping on at 3E. My idea of how the Realm "works" probably isn't the same as yours at this point, unless you're one of three other people who happened to be sitting around the same gaming tables I've been at over the better parts of two decades.
                  4. Charm bloat. Many Solar Charms are very boring if you're not into number crunching, and even enthusiastic min-maxers I've played with have indicated there are probably too many either way. Not going to talk about this one much, as it seems to be one of the common "cons" in the other lists.
                  5. Some of the mechanics could be laid out in a more concise, precise manner.
                  6. The retention of the difference in Bonus Points at creation and Experience during play. As things stand now, it's really hard for me to not look at character creation as a "winnable" (or more importantly, "loseable") minigame, a state of affairs which I loathe.
                  7. I dislike much of the core book art, at least compared to 2E's core. Though not as bad as the backer draft, I still find many pieces of the art from the 3E core pretty bad, and really dislike the cover. I probably wouldn't buy it in a store if I had leafed through it first.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    I don't think Exalted comes even remotely close to pretending the characters are anything but god-kings.
                    Well I can see what the posters getting at. At one level you are a starting hero yet also a demigod. But we aren’t presented with many premade oppositions that aren’t scrubs or other Exalts or Multiple Tyrant Lizards.

                    Like honestly you shouldn’t be fighting just one god. If you are a circle of Solars you need to be fighting multiple spirits, bolster by mortal human or beast mooks. Otberwise it’s the early storyarch of those Animes/Mangas were the main Character is obviously outclassing everyone like One Punch Man or Luffy. A single God and Some Bandits are probably not going to be a threat to a whole Circle of Exalts, much less Solars. It may be a threat to a single solar though.

                    There is some dissonance, well until we get more books. Where at the same time your a starting video game hero... except you are also Boss villain level slugger.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      What do you want to use them for?
                      They're fine until you hit the part where your character needs a character sheet for his alternate motivations to work. Then you start having to make other character sheets with their own abilities and charms. I tried making a character with almost all the persona charms at start and the other character sheets were pretty worthless and very much a waste of XP. This is the one case where I would have been fine with them stealing from sidereals (as opposed to the other times when I was mad about it) and just had alternate persona's have minor abilities similar to resplendencies that let you fake being competent at something you might not be rather than forcing you to make multiple character sheets most of which are almost entirely worthless and a shitload time to make the character work.
                      Last edited by Epimetheus; 02-06-2019, 10:27 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                        I don't think Exalted comes even remotely close to pretending the characters are anything but god-kings.
                        It pretends that the solars are underdogs but I guess in sense that it's 300 versus hundreds of thousands, sure. In the sense that they constantly have to struggle well, on paper sure in practice the opponents solars are given when they are allowed to have their best charms up front is just a joke.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                          I should also mention that our group had major problems with this as well until we came up with physical solutions, so that should factor into my pro/cons. A particularly crafty member of our group, like in real life, build a little board with moveable tiles and a big double-wide number line for initiative. Now whenever we go into combat a tile with each of our names on it goes onto the board and a tile with enemies A to up to G gets placed too. That way whenever we shuffle anything around it becomes obvious if they need to take an immediate turn, or how deadly the foe's current initiative is at. We tend to use Theatre of the Mind, so it takes the place of a combat map.
                          My group did something similar, albeit less crafty, where we used a dry-erase map (Paizo's Flip Mat, if you are interested) and then numbered it and dropped miniatures on the map as representative for each player and enemy. Using that, it really wasn't bad at all to track initiative and it does provide, at a glance, who is at dangerous levels of initiative and controlling the fight.

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                          • #43
                            I play over Skype, so on my computer. Thus, I write initiative, motes and wp on a word doc or notepad and just edit as I go. So it's fairly easy to keep track, though I somethimes forget to regen motes (but that's easy enough to put in later,ie if I forget for 3 rounds, then I can add 15.

                            When I ran the game though, I often lost track of whose go it was. I found the best thing was to get them to track it themselves, and read out a count-down.


                            My characters:
                            Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                            Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                              It pretends that the solars are underdogs but I guess in sense that it's 300 versus hundreds of thousands, sure. In the sense that they constantly have to struggle well, on paper sure in practice the opponents solars are given when they are allowed to have their best charms up front is just a joke.
                              I guess it's supposed to be Luke Skywalker vs the Empire; they're outnumbered, but obviously Luke can take on 10 stormtroopers and win.

                              In theory, the Realm is still a huge threat because they have 70 Dragonblood and 4000 soldiers per Solar, but obviously it's not practical for me to run a fight between 6 Solars and 420 Dragonblood. So it ends up being 6 Solars vs 6 Dragonblood, and unsurprisingly, the Solars wipe the floor with them.


                              My characters:
                              Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                              • #45
                                (I kind of want to run a Size 2 unit of 30 Might 3 elite-drill Dragonblooded led by an Essence 5 general, and 2-3 other Essence 4 DBs, but everyone tells me you can't put Dragonblood in battle groups. But how else do you run 30 Dragonblood attacking the PCs?
                                This comes back, to some extent, to the lack of foes for high-level Solars.)
                                Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-06-2019, 03:09 PM.


                                My characters:
                                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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