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  • Mortals in 3e

    I know that this might be a somewhat contentious topic, given the lack of Enlightened mortals in 3e, but given that the exalted seem to be substantially less than 1% of the population, and there are so many threats to mortal life it seems improbable that humans survive given the frankly minimal protection that ~30,000 Dragon-blooded can give them. But even in 2e, enlightened mortals were a rare occurrence. This also bothers me since even animals seem to be able to gain access to the essence and thus a limited number of charms, and they can do it more easily than mortals can. So I wanted to make a list of ways that mortals can gain access to enough supernatural mojo to plausibly punch above their weight class (they don't need to be an even match, just a threat).

    Note: I am focusing on combat power because it has a simple 'win condition' but any type of power is valid.

    Magical Learning
    This category is defined by anything that any mortal character can gain access to, and that they don't require others to help them. This does not need to be literal learning, if there is an artifact or manse that can grant them powers, which they could seek out on their own then it goes here.
    • Martial Enlightenment - This may not be a thing anymore, but in 2e mortals could reach a max of Essence 3 and learn terrestrial martial arts charms. They had a max of 30 personal motes.
    • Sorcerous Enlightenment - This is definitely still a thing and with a decent shaping ritual, and possibly and infernal artifact it may be the most dangerous tool available to mortals. Bind a few demons, have a sorcerous pool ready before the fight and see what you can accomplish.
    Heritage
    This category is for abilities that you either were born with, or you don't have them. Though they might be able to be improved on through effort and training.
    • God-blooded: Most gods, and thus god-blooded aren't that powerful. However, you could have the bastard child of a fairly powerful god, like Ahlat, which could learn their powers and potentially be able to spike above Dragonblooded power for short periods of time, though they probably can't maintain that exertion long. I also wonder if a god-blooded has the potential to achieve apotheosis and become a god under their parent's purview.
    • Demon-blooded: Exactly like god-blooded, but with demons. Their power would clearly depend a lot on the power of their demonic sire - one of the many children born from Neomah might be able to do some body-alteration tricks and some social mojo beyond their ken. Whereas, a hypothetical child of Liger would be either a menace or a boon to all the world.
    • Exalted Parentage: We have heard that the children of exalted may be special in some way, but that it will be different than merely gaining access to their parent's charms. Clearly not a thing for Dragonblooded.
      • Beastmen - the way Beastmen were made in prior editions was... unpleasant, especially in large numbers. This also isn't necessarily 'magic' in that it's unknown what it will entail in this edition, and may not grant any charms whatsoever. However, Beastmen are generally more dangerous than pure mortals.
    • Fae-blooded: Unlike the Inheritance above, at this point, we are starting to scrape the dregs of inherited power. Like the others, they have a non-mortal parent from whom they can inherit supernatural abilities. However the Fae abilities tend toward the weird/illusionary already, and many only really function in the Wyld. I suspect that a Fae-blooded might be instrumental to a moral adventuring party, but mainly because they can protect them from the ravages of the Wyld.
    • Ghostblooded: I don't even really know how this is supposed to work, but apparently a ghost can impregnate someone or be impregnated, in spitting in the face of all laws of life and nature. Ghostblooded inherits their parent's power, which unless they were a ghost of some significance, like a Deathlord or Nephwrack, this would be pretty meager.
    Patronage
    This category is not innate power, it must be sought out after birth and it cannot be gained through effort or merit. It can only be gained through the beneficence of a greater power of some sort, and likely at great cost. I am excluding all exalted, who are no longer relevantly 'mortal' (though currently there is little reason that there can't be an arbitrary number of Liminal and Exigent Exalts).
    • Endowment - there used to be rules in 2e that Gods could 'adopt mortals' and endow them with god-blood and thus charms. I suspect with the introduction of Exigence, this will be dropped.
    • Solar-Mentorship: I vaguely remember a charm that granted a mortal ally the use of a Solar charm, though obviously a basic one.
    • Infernal-forging: though it didn't give access to any charms, 2e had many infernal charms that allowed them to mutate mortals to their needs. Much like regular mutation mechanically, but guided so there are no downsides, so long as you trust the patron.
    • Kalediscopic Border of Creation - there was an attack that would grant the target a temporary +10 successes on all actions for a limited time, followed by an eternity of cursed ineptitude.
    • Investiture of Infernal Glory - though there isn't a template for it this time, this was the biggest bang for your buck in terms of magic power, but with the downside to compensate. For exalted it lets them jump 1 rung on the power scale for martial arts and Sorcery, as well as granting them access to powerful Infernal charms.
      • The effects for mortals and DB are a bit less clear, it clearly grants them access to terrestrial and celestial circles of power respectively. But since they can both get that power naturally through the Root of the Perfected Lotus or Immaculate Mastery and a variety of artifacts, it unclear if this could bootstrap Mortals all the way to Celestial Power and make them a match for young Solars. The presence of an artifact for the Scarlet Empress that allows her to use Adamant Sorcery suggests that it might be possible, but that it would require a second form of investment, such as an artifact which would be unlikely for a mortal.
      • Given that Akuma-hood functions like a mini-infernal exaltation in many ways, and the fact that there is little in the way of Akuma being mass produced beyond what a terrible deal it is and Sidereal crackdowns it really points to how much potential there could be if the Yozi weren't such terrible rulers.
    Desultory
    This is a category of power for all abilities that are gained randomly, or uncontrollably. They may even be largely detrimental.
    • Wyld Mutation - Randomized mutations from exposure to the wyld.
    • Infernal Mutations - Similar to wyld mutations, but they likely differ in what types of changes that can be granted.
    • Serendipity - Just from the antagonist section there appear to be a number of bizarre events or features that can grant people magical abilities from the minor to the Celestial, but that they often irrevocably change the person exposed, possibly to the point where they are no longer the same person.
    Are there any there any sources that I am missing? As a side note, how do people feel about the loss of enlightened mortals?

  • #2
    Okay, two things:

    One, who is trying to kill everybody in the world?

    Two, for the majority of human history, many if not most people did not live past the age of five (there's a fairly good chance that your grandparents, and almost certain one for your great-grandparents, had siblings that did not survive childhood), and thereafter you had pretty good odds of dying prematurely as a result of infection, disease, malnutrition or starvation, severe weather, natural disasters and war. You can kind of infer what the mortality rate was like from the fact that, in the hundred or so years since decent technology was developed and implemented to deal with most of that, the human population increased by about three times as much as it had managed to reach after about ten thousand years. Like hey, look at how many people are not dying of polio and tuberculosis anymore.

    People still managed. They lived with it. What else were they going to do?


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      Okay, two things:

      One, who is trying to kill everybody in the world?
      I think, of the Thousand Dooms, the only remaining one unambiguously remaining is the Fair Folk, yeah? They still want to destroy Creation and watch it boil away into the Wyld? There are probably still Underworld shenanigans that are apocalypse-related going on, but that's yet to be at all confirmed.

      I'm going to flip one of the OP's contentions around:
      it seems improbable that humans survive given the frankly minimal protection that ~30,000 Dragon-blooded can give them.
      There are certainly some threats that the un-Exalted are not equipped at all to deal with (I don't think humanity could have toppled the Yozis, even with divine aid, without some among their number becoming Exalted) but to speak bluntly: the Dragon-Blooded are not more powerful, as a class, than the un-Exalted masses are. If the un-Exalted rose up against the Dragon-Blooded, many of them would die but the teeming millions of Creation, many of whom are wise, strong, cunning, and just plain tough-as-nails themselves, would pull down the Dragon-Blooded just as the Dragon-Blooded pulled down the Solars.

      Don't approach things from the standpoint of "mortals are pets. Sometimes a pet can rip out someones throat, but ultimately: pets. They live under the aegis of the Exalted, who are the only true power in the world." This is not so. The Exalted are earth-shaking heroes and there are some threats only they can deal with, but each and every one of them was un-Exalted once, and there's not a single one of them, in 3E, who can't be pulled off their horse and murdered by a sufficient number of determined mortals.


      "SEX NOVA is the kind of person who, after being chosen as the divine champion of the god of heroes, decided to call himself SEX NOVA."

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      • #4
        Gone actually start my day soon so some notes:
        Animals having charms was mentioned here and another thread, and uh...those are powered by the Exalted through familiar charms. Not by the animal.

        Missing sources of power include:
        Whatever the fuck is going on with the Yenin
        Numbers
        Tactics
        Secret techniques(that one Adversary has a soul cobra)
        Artifacts That allow mortal attunement (looking at you vainglory)


        I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
          Okay, two things:

          One, who is trying to kill everybody in the world?

          Two, for the majority of human history, many if not most people did not live past the age of five (there's a fairly good chance that your grandparents, and almost certain one for your great-grandparents, had siblings that did not survive childhood), and thereafter you had pretty good odds of dying prematurely as a result of infection, disease, malnutrition or starvation, severe weather, natural disasters and war. You can kind of infer what the mortality rate was like from the fact that, in the hundred or so years since decent technology was developed and implemented to deal with most of that, the human population increased by about three times as much as it had managed to reach after about ten thousand years. Like hey, look at how many people are not dying of polio and tuberculosis anymore.

          People still managed. They lived with it. What else were they going to do?
          I don't know that I understand the meaning in your reply. After all the Neverborn, most of the Deathlords, and a good portion of the abyssals want to wipe out mortals. Not to mention their Nephwracks and various other undead minions. The Yozi that don't want to enslave humanity or make them exist in a state of constant torment have omnicide on the menu. Their respective Akuma literally have to be on board. The demons are a mixed bag, but some are on board with the Zero-Mortals plan. There are the Behemoths, the Heckeronherie, various other malevolent monsters. All of the Raksha want to drag creation back to formlessness. Also probably at least a few of the Celestial Exalted.

          None of the factor that contributed to human death prior to the modern era were gunning to kill everyone. Diseases may kill us, but this is usually an unintentional side-effect of their lifecycle, not the goal. Imagine if you would, if the black plague was sentient, and could plan and coordinate its actions and had the goal of wiping out all mankind. How successful do you think it would have been? I don't know if it would have succeeded, but I wouldn't be comfortable betting against it either.

          I'm not asking that mortal life be made easy or simple, arguably the existence of god-blooded would complicate and endanger mortal hierarchies even more. Also, I should probably clarify that my main issue is that while in some ways mortals are more dangerous and powerful than ever, especially in groups, in other ways they are less consequential as individuals. The lack of enlightened mortals makes it feel like a mortal can't accomplish much of note unless they exalt, which is kind of shitty.

          Edit: Lastly I should have clarified, I am currently making a new exalted wiki for fan content, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
          Last edited by Nabirius; 02-07-2019, 02:51 AM.

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          • #6
            I'd like to say that while I similarly think that mortal heroes can accomplish amazing things on their own, even in the magical world of exalted, I think this is a cool list! Especially since an army of mortals could also be lead by any of these individuals. It's also good fodder to give some mortal antagonists some punch. For DBs mortals can be pretty genuinely scary in certain situations, and for Solars mortal minions can be a good big bad supplement.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Murcushio View Post

              I think, of the Thousand Dooms, the only remaining one unambiguously remaining is the Fair Folk, yeah? They still want to destroy Creation and watch it boil away into the Wyld? There are probably still Underworld shenanigans that are apocalypse-related going on, but that's yet to be at all confirmed.
              Well, laying aside #NotAllFairFolk, the original query seems more predicated on the extinction of humanity being an aggregate thing, rather than a singular effort.

              Originally posted by Murcushio
              but to speak bluntly: the Dragon-Blooded are not more powerful, as a class, than the un-Exalted masses are.
              I think that's somewhat true, but missing some of the ways in which Dragon Blooded can apply their powers more laterally.

              I think the original poster is overlooking the same thing towards a different purpose, frankly.

              Dragon Blooded aren't going to look very effective if one is approaching them as each needing to personally defend a large number of people, but if they're applying themselves to creating and sustaining systems that widely and efficiently project power, they get some force multipliers.

              Plus a few things that really are a bit overwhelming. Can somebody remind me what the Earth Signature for Bureaucracy does?

              Originally posted by Murcushio
              If the un-Exalted rose up against the Dragon-Blooded, many of them would die but the teeming millions of Creation, many of whom are wise, strong, cunning, and just plain tough-as-nails themselves, would pull down the Dragon-Blooded just as the Dragon-Blooded pulled down the Solars.
              I don't know, when there's a lot more of them, that becomes a harder prospect just from organizational inefficiency.

              Then you add in things like Exalted heritage being widespread enough that they're periodically popping back up.

              Or trying to kill a Water Aspect who lives near the sea and knows when to fold 'em. What, is the baying mob going to dive in after them?

              Anyway, the best defence a lot of mortals have is probably convincing the thing threatening them that it would profit more from letting them live, or convincing somebody else to fight on their behalf. This probably often involves a lot of canniness and cunning.

              And it won't work a lot of the time. Again, what is the population growth rate?


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nabirius View Post
                I don't know that I understand the meaning in your reply. After all the Neverborn, most of the Deathlords, and a good portion of the abyssals want to wipe out mortals. Not to mention their Nephwracks and various other undead minions.
                The Neverborn are largely impotent, the Deathlords are... complicated, the Abyssals have only been around five years (and also complicated) and the Nephwracks have that pesky problem of turning into ash in direct sunlight.

                Also, they hardly really have nukes. The best methods most can employ are ultimately not much better than what has been employed historically.

                "But what about the Great Contagion?" Well, it can't be stopped by enlightened mortals, so it's a moot point anyway.

                Originally posted by Nabirius
                The Yozi that don't want to enslave humanity or make them exist in a state of constant torment have omnicide on the menu. Their respective Akuma literally have to be on board. The demons are a mixed bag, but some are on board with the Zero-Mortals plan.
                Yozis are trapped outside the world for all eternity. Most demons aren't into that shit, and wouldn't have the power to do it if they were.

                How many akuma do you imagine them to have, and what are their capabilities?

                The point of me saying that nobody really has nukes before is that, without that, killing lots of people deliberately takes a really long time. Time for people to see it coming and run away. Time for opposition to mobilise. How many people does this company of akuma Exalted on an omnicidal crusade kill before, say, the Sidereals come down on them? They're not killbots, the Yozis can't just build more of them.

                Originally posted by Nabirius
                There are the Behemoths, the Heckeronherie, various other malevolent monsters.
                Hekatonchires are stuck in the Underworld, if many of them even act like this. Most behemoths are basically just walking natural disasters or really big animals as far as their scope or motive. Most aren't deliberately attacking people, and population densities have to be low enough that their casualty rates aren't very big.

                Originally posted by Nabirius
                All of the Raksha want to drag creation back to formlessness.
                No they don't, and Raksha of all political affiliations are a shattered remnant of the forces that tried to destroy the world (and whose failure to do so was not because enlightened mortals stopped them).

                Originally posted by Nabirius
                Also probably at least a few of the Celestial Exalted.
                Well, you can make any argument work if you include unsubstantiated made up details.

                Originally posted by Nabirius
                Imagine if you would, if the black plague was sentient, and could plan and coordinate its actions and had the goal of wiping out all mankind. How successful do you think it would have been? I don't know if it would have succeeded, but I wouldn't be comfortable betting against it either.
                The Atlantic and Pacific oceans would have presented a significant obstacle.

                And hey, if they're wiping out Afro-Eurasian humanity, they're also killing off shit like smallpox. Americans eventually grow numerous enough to start colonising the vast, empty continents. Interesting alternative timeline.

                I kid of course. The continents won't be empty; there will be people who isolated themselves from the plague.

                Originally posted by Nabirius
                in other ways they are less consequential as individuals. The lack of enlightened mortals makes it feel like a mortal can't accomplish much of note unless they exalt, which is kind of shitty.
                Who among us is consequential as an individual? What accomplishments do you want a given mortal to have? What is stopping them?

                Say a mortal character writes an RPG. For the sake of argument, let's assume that an Exalt who has the same interest will definitely produce a superior one, or at least a more successful one. Is an accomplishment worthless because it isn't the best around?

                If it is, why are any of us having this conversation?

                (Meaning no disrespect to the game)

                Originally posted by Nabirius
                Edit: Lastly I should have clarified, I am currently making a new exalted wiki for fan content, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
                I don't think you are.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                  I think, of the Thousand Dooms, the only remaining one unambiguously remaining is the Fair Folk, yeah? They still want to destroy Creation and watch it boil away into the Wyld? ...
                  Actually, no. Fair Folk are as I gather last, not going back to the version that was in the 1e book. Remember a bit that the Fair Folk as a potentail existential threat was in part from authors going off the rails on following an outline (see here for more on that). While there might be Fair Folk who think that, the general vibe that we got in late 2e and I think we're going to see with the hannya still being a thing, we're going to get the raksha-as-refugees thing still. Some might still very want another Balorian Crusade, but they probably ultimatley don't matter in the general long term survival of the human species.

                  Generally too, raksha while like, not unheard of, aren't something yous ee every day. Most people in Creaiton are afraid of a bad harvest or invading armies more than fairies. Fair Folk are a really nasty disastor, probably akin to a hurricane, invading army, or plague. But humanity deals with those too.

                  Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                  ... There are probably still Underworld shenanigans that are apocalypse-related going on, but that's yet to be at all confirmed.
                  I'm actually skeptical it'll ever be the case since apocalyptic-level plots are not conductive to intersting setting building, and the current devs are keen more I think on making Creation interesting and a focus. When you introduce existential threats, things like armies and wars stop being as important.

                  Simply put, the sort of things that humans care about day to day in Creation are probably what folks have cared about day-to-day on Earth for most of history. THe list of potential disasters that could hurt your life are longer, but that they happen to be sapient doesn't mean that humanity is at some risk of exitinction every moment.


                  And stuff.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nabirius View Post

                    I don't know that I understand the meaning in your reply. After all the Neverborn, most of the Deathlords, and a good portion of the abyssals want to wipe out mortals. ...
                    The Neverborn don't want anything. They're asleep and impotent at the bottom of the Underworld. There is also something in other outlets that there's no Oblivion anymore anyhow. The Neverborn are dead gods thrashing in their sleep and the Deathlords are powerful ghosts who wrestled packs from them after centuries fo work. The Neverborn wanting anything is irrelevant and the Deahtlords seem to be pretty happy ruling their domains for as long as they can. Mask of Winters just as much likes toying with mortals as he likes killing them, as an example.

                    Abyssals are a diverse group of people with their own goals, a more student-master relationship with the practical deities fo the Underwolrd the Deathlords have become and so on. Probably a lot of them have other interests besides omnicdie.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    ... Not to mention their Nephwracks and various other undead minions. ...
                    There have been nephwracks of some sort probably since the dawn of time and the world seems to do fine even when there were multiple civil wars, an Usupration, and a Contagion. If they were an existential threat to humanity, they'd of shown to be the case. They probably are again, pretty rare in the grand scheme of things people actually worry about in Creation compared to say, cholera.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    ... The Yozi that don't want to enslave humanity or make them exist in a state of constant torment have omnicide on the menu. ...
                    They Yozis will never get out and their souls are not interested in fulfilling thier revenge. They will thrash uselessly at their cage for the rest of all time because of the pacts they made. The thing folks will most likely interact with are their souls, which range from pretty magnanamous about Hell (Ligier), alien in want (Munaxes) or uninterested in people until called to deal with them (Erembour). And things get more diverging from there. And many aren't that murdeorus to my understanding. Just angry. And again, while Creaiton is a pretty magical place, actual human-demon interactions is probably rare enough that folks just prioritize other things quite often. Demons are dangerous and disasterous to people and could destory kingdoms. But the world is not in any eminent threat of demonic destruction. Again, it hasn't for thousands of years now, and it probably won't be soon.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    ... Their respective Akuma literally have to be on board. ...
                    Akuma in 3e aren't what they were before. Akuma is a catch-all term for Exalts who have made some deal for power from Hell. Being an infernalist might be that youg ot some sorcery or you turned into something like Dukantha. But they are still probably rare amongst a group that save Dragon-Blooded, number only in the hundreds. Many akuma have independence enough to not have to worry about such things and any who are just murdershitbots are are so vanishingly rare that they're not something that'll end the world.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    ... The demons are a mixed bag, but some are on board with the Zero-Mortals plan. ...
                    There is no real Zero Mortals plan to my understanidng. Most demons seem to not give a shit about anything out of Hell or their weird projects and amny are actually quite fond of humans.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    There are the Behemoths, the Heckeronherie, various other malevolent monsters. ...
                    Creation has had these since Ever. As noted already, most behemoths are just exotic geography, disasters or animals. They are rare, and dangerous, the things you hear legends about. Creation is more like Flat Earth, where these things eventually get spun out and folks think might even be overblown even if the world is known to be magical. Not One Punch Man where there's a new levelling of City Z ever week.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    ...All of the Raksha want to drag creation back to formlessness. ...
                    First, no they don't. Most raksha at this point are at best refugee nobles in a lost land. The hannya prowl their original origins and their best effort to do this died wiht Balor. And note, this never happened before him either in the way it did. Fair Folk are like demons, the dead, a storm, plague or army. They add to the list of human miseries in Creaiton, not overwhelm them existentially.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    ... Also probably at least a few of the Celestial Exalted.
                    Again, what does a Celestial do that's so existential? Even Solar Circle Sorcery, while powerful, ultimatley is reginal in power I feel. An Exalt who really wants to break the world is probably rather rare, and those who have come close something that draws in the not-mortals enough in the coruse of hsitory to not be something mortals worrya bout. Again, cholera matters than some hypothetical one in billions maniac on the other side of the world.

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    None of the factor that contributed to human death prior to the modern era were gunning to kill everyone. Diseases may kill us, but this is usually an unintentional side-effect of their lifecycle, not the goal. Imagine if you would, if the black plague was sentient, and could plan and coordinate its actions and had the goal of wiping out all mankind. How successful do you think it would have been? I don't know if it would have succeeded, but I wouldn't be comfortable betting against it either.
                    Not a lot in Creation is that in a mood to kill people en masse either really. The entire idea that there's arrayed forces gunning to kill every last human is just something 3e doesn't worry about. This is because it's focused much more on the ways of people and their own issues. Existential threats make for bad setting building since it means a civil war or rising empire is irrelevant in the context of some "real thrat' to all life. (It's bad fiction too. Infinity War is fun, but it ultimatley is going to have a bit of folks speculating about how they fix it, not whether, becuase when you make stakes like that and want a continued story, the soltuion is forgone.)

                    Originally posted by Murcushio View Post
                    I'm not asking that mortal life be made easy or simple, arguably the existence of god-blooded would complicate and endanger mortal hierarchies even more. Also, I should probably clarify that my main issue is that while in some ways mortals are more dangerous and powerful than ever, especially in groups, in other ways they are less consequential as individuals. The lack of enlightened mortals makes it feel like a mortal can't accomplish much of note unless they exalt, which is kind of shitty.
                    This is only becuase you've stacked the deck with so many actually rare events that it necessitates things. A big thing to remember is that Creation in 3e is not in the existential threat it was in 2e. I mean, think on number of Exalts even. Through most of human history, there hasn't been many more Exalts than there are now. There have even been instances of mass die-off, probably like the Solar-Lunar war in the early eras, the fall of the First Deliberative, all that. Through all this time there have been hundreds of human socities, empires, cities, peoples, tribes, wars, conflicts, alliances, and so on. I think a big thign to remember is that while the Exalted are impactful, they are sitll very impactful indivduals in a very big world. When you basically say the only things out there are out ot kill humanity, and then that fighting htose constantly are the only things that matter ultiamtely, it's ignoring the fact that Creation seeems to like, actually operate with what appears to be less of that around in order for the setting ot make sense.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      snip.
                      Hey Levi, there is literally no reason for your hostility and condescension.

                      https://exalted-3e.fandom.com/wiki/Exalted_3e_Wiki

                      Your points are disingenuous when they aren't outright incorrect.

                      Blaque you made a similar point, but without the arrogant condescension. I don't know whether the Neverborn 'don't want anything' since they aren't really sentient and don't take direct action, but the fact of the matter is their existence tends to drive Creation toward non-existence. You will notice that I did not make sweeping statements about any of the categories, except the Neverborn. I acknowledge that individuals in all of the categories have differing motives, but that on the whole they each (with the exception of the Celestial Exalted) they tend to make mortal survival more in peril than they would be were these groups absent.

                      I think that you have a point that I may be improperly carrying over my sense that the world is always doomed from 2e. You are correct that the world is less doomed than it was previously, and that I am filling gaps in my information with a highly negative possibility. But the setting does tend to fall apart if you think about it too hard, which is not necessarily a fatal criticism, many settings do this. Frankly, it's probably not an important critique what so ever so long as the setting enables you to tell compelling stories within the setting, which happily exalted does. (Please also note that in my original post this was a small aside that we have all apparently decided was the real point)

                      But consider for a moment the United States government, the government of the most powerful nation on earth. There are about 2 million government employees for a population of about 300 million, and by most estimates, the government is woefully underfunded and understaffed. There are approximately 30,000 exalted in total, attempting to rule over 500 million mortals (give or take, many are in independent governments not associated with the realm or Lookshy) without the help of modern conveniences. Moreover, there are zero factions in the world, now or ever, that had human extinction as a major goal and yet we may still manage to kill ourselves off.

                      As much as I disliked Levi's style of argument, he does make a good point that the Dragonblooded form institutions that amass and distribute power effectively. But that is only useful insofar as it is possible to amass enough power to plausibly fight back. Consider the possibility of a deathlord with Supernal Occult and sorcery, with Total Annihilation he could launch several nukes a day (with a bunch of restrictions, fair), and then raise them from the dead as his army for the next invasion. Point being that it doesn't require a ton of people want to destroy creation to cause serious damage to human life and make the setting nothing like its current status quo.

                      There are also a ton of metaphysical questions that it raises. For instance, someone pointed out that the animals with essence abilities are because they are familiars, this is not universally true (or at least there are a large number of inexplicably animal-like magical creatures like Barrow Hounds, Gravehounds, aurochs, etc. Some magical beings, like the Cockatrice, are spontaneously magic offspring from non-magic animals). But to the extent it is true, it raises the similar question of why it is impossible for Solars to do the same to humans and awaken their innate magic, and if they don't have such magic, then why do animals? Moreover, why are ghosts more magical than humans? Some like the Susurrus makes sense since they are amalgamations of human souls and thus more 'powerful' in some indefinite manner. But others are merely dead people, yet now endowed with powers unavailable to them in life. Why are humans incapable of accessing this potential before death when so many other beings can?

                      Now despite all the words I have typed, all of that is completely beside the point. I'm just apparently incapable of not arguing on the internet. The reason I am interested in collecting material for 'heroic mortals' is that I like the concept. I like the idea that with enough learning, training, or sheer determination a mortal can be a player in the universe without exalting and I like the idea of a wise old master who the players can learn from, despite being able to overpower. Its a staple of wuxia fiction, and even heroic myth. I also like the idea of having a power-tier somewhere between the exalted and the extra. If its not your cup of tea that's fine.
                      Last edited by Nabirius; 02-07-2019, 05:17 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nabirius View Post

                        Hey Levi, are you always this much of a prick?

                        https://exalted-3e.fandom.com/wiki/Exalted_3e_Wiki

                        Now kindly piss off. Your points are disingenuous when they aren't outright incorrect.
                        I'm pretty sure when Isator said "I don't think you are" he meant "I don't think you are missing anything" not "I don't think you are making a wiki", please calm down.

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                        • #13
                          That was the impression that I took away.

                          The only thing I can see missing are certain artefacts, and there's blessings granted by Lunars. In 2e they could grant permanent mutations and instill immunity to fear. I don't know what they'll be able to do in 3e, but I'm sure it will be something.

                          It's been mentioned that they'll be able to turn people into beastmen.

                          I think mortals' best defence against the supernatural though, is going to be numbers, wards (salt, cold iron, etc) and prayers to local deities who can protect them.


                          "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sigfriedmcwild View Post

                            I'm pretty sure when Isator said "I don't think you are" he meant "I don't think you are missing anything" not "I don't think you are making a wiki", please calm down.

                            If that is what he meant I apologize, I misread his statement. Though frankly, I object to the overall hostile and condescending tone of his posts. However, if that was unintended or something that I read into the post, I again apologize. I am not intending to start flame wars.

                            Oz, can mortals generally attune to artifacts, or does it have to be a specialized artifact? There was a powerful scepter in 2e that allowed mortals to wield it and create powerful laws, but I don't know how much of a feature this is in 3e.
                            Last edited by Nabirius; 02-07-2019, 05:27 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nabirius View Post


                              If that is what he meant I apologize, I misread his statement. Though frankly, I object to the overall hostile and condescending tone of his posts. However, if that was unintended or something that I read into the post, I again apologize. I am not intending to start flame wars.

                              Oz, can mortals generally attune to artifacts, or does it have to be a specialized artifact? There was a powerful scepter in 2e that allowed mortals to wield it and create powerful laws, but I don't know how much of a feature this is in 3e.
                              Perfect still has his staff and is still mortal. It’s specific to the artifact however, not a general rule. Vainglory is an example from arms.


                              I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

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