Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mortals in 3e

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Now, kung-fu does not seem to be magic (or rather, it contains secret magic that can only be unlocked by magical superhumans. But only by magical superhumans). It's just... kung fu. But that doesn't reflect the genre.
    We got the lady with a soul snake from her secret snake school. Pretty sure kung fu still does magic, just not uniformly and not always.


    I did a lot of homebrew over here. PEACH.

    Comment


    • #47
      I'll be honest, I didn't know that.
      I just saw that it was another mortal, like the spy or the barbarian, and didn't buy it (I can make mortals myself). I just went and bought it now.
      That's pretty cool, I like it.


      "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

      Comment


      • #48
        The Wizard of Oz, these questions do seem to come down to both a genre or setting side to it, and an implementation side of it.

        My perception is it sort of comes back to that idea, which actually Exalted has been somewhat inconsistent on, of how much mortals and Exalted are in a separate kind of action genre. In one corner, mortals in a brutally realistic mode and the Exalted's power is to make stylish, fanciful wuxia/Hong Kong action cinema stuff happen. In that mode, fancy techniques don't really give you as much edge as cunning or a sharp blade, and mortal MA not really having an edge is a feature, not bug. Mortals live in Yoji Yamada's samurai trilogy and Exalts live in Ninja Scroll or Samurai Shodown or Kenshin land. Or alternatively, if they're actually both in that same stylish action genre with those tropes where they can become badass through kung fu and the Exalted are just stronger and can do more blatantly supernatural stuff.

        So that's a genre question, then separately there's the implementation of whether TMA using mortals is a good way to do mortals who've become powerful through kung fu.... or actually it's mechanically an overweight way to do what can be abstracted out and implemented through ad hoc bonuses on QCs, since most of these mortals are not going to actually be player characters.

        I agree with you that QCs generally imply setting 'facts' (if that's a reasonable at all summary of the gist of your comments). Like if you commonly build Godblooded QC in your games who can fight a Solar on an even level despite not being particularly old or experienced or special, that implies 'facts' about the world, rather than being without implication just for the sake of story and good fights working out! QCs as a mechanical abstraction to reduce weight on the ST side, not an ability to abandon setting 'facts' (for want of a better term).

        Comment


        • #49
          I mean, another thing to remember is that in 3e, it's not the Martial Arts dots that give you magic. A way I think of it is that just knowing Snake Sytle doesn't give you shit besides dots in Snake Style and the ability to use cool weapons. But that you're a master of Snake Style probably opens up options storywise to other things, such as weird unique techniques (Meirts) or patronage for useful beings (as the characte rin Adversaries of the Righteous).

          I think that's the big thing to me. Even if it's a setting fact, that fact is not going to be realized by the Martial Arts Ablity all on its own giving out free beeenies. It is just a justificaiton for other things for a character, who is exceptional to get the Dodge 7.

          Mind, I also don't think the mechanics are setting facts, and that traits should be tailored to your grolup and the same character need not have the same numerical expression in every game, as what that means might be contextual to what your group does.


          And stuff.
          My DeviantArt Page // My tumblr // Exalted 3e Houserules

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Verzio View Post

            As it happens, I've been working on a few ideas for mortal characters (aiming at putting something up on the Storyteller's Vault), and this is one of the things I'm looking to capture. My current approach is to allow mortals to follow a specific code of conduct (I'm developing several examples) to earn "Enlightenment XP" (by analogy with Solar or Dragon XP for filling character roles or playing the limitations for Flaws). But rather than being used to buy Charms or abilities or the like, Enlightenment XP can be cashed in for motes to power MA charms.

            So, for example, a PC mortal MA following the Path of Temperance can earn Enlightenment XP for being restricted by her ascetic principles in play, thus gaining a pool of points that can be expended to power her bought-with-ordinary-experience Golden Janissary Style charms. Obviously, that means she'll have to husband use of those charms in ways characters with actual mote pools don't, but when the situation merits it, she can use her "secret technique" of Golden Janissary Form to kick ass.

            (So far, my rough-draft paths are Temperance, Compassion, Valor, Filial Piety, and Blood Sacrifice. The Immaculate Order strongly favors Temperance; Compassion is uncommon and often considered socially subversive; Valor is popular among those who focus on martial glory; Filial Piety is most common in places with strong ancestor cults; and Blood Sacrifice is popularly associated with Yozi cults and Anathema and seen as "cheating the system" by followers of other paths.)
            I don't know that this works for my purposes exactly, but I really wanted to let you know that this is super fucking cool! If you have the document, would you mind posting it?

            I think Blaque has some excellent points about how QC characters don't really need to necessarily be obviously supernatural in order to make the game work and also have mechanical flavor. A martial artist or soldier might have parry 7 in the fight because in the narrative they are incredibly motivated as well as skilled, or are willing to take the kind of risks someone fighting with the expectation of surviving would not. Furthermore, merit or even made up techniques can certainly fill in for a charm tree.

            However, I do like playing mortal characters and running mortal campaigns, which are anime-esque but are on a lower power level and social status from the exalted. One of the reasons I haven't for 3e is that the linear warriors/quadratic wizards problem is truly gigantic here, a mortal sorcerer can do an enormous number of powerful effects even when limited to terrestrial workings and spells (bind a few 1st circle demons and go to town). My players are nicer than that, and I know the person who likes to play caster characters would play support, but there's no getting around how much more he brings to the table than the others.

            In those cases, I suppose there is nothing stopping me from just porting over the setting details from 2e which allowed for mortals to take terrestrial martial arts and open them up for unexalted mortals as well, but this is clearly a house rule and one that is kind of janky without a bunch of essence 3 mortals running around. I suspect part of this has to do with the fact that I agree with Oz that mortal magic martial arts are a good fit for the setting, its hard to see how the wise master can teach the solar things he is not mechanically capable of himself.

            I will say that I agree that enlightenment was too easy in the past, with solars being able to create enlighted shock troops in a matter of days. I think such enlightenment should be rather rare, possibly as rare as the exalted but requiring incredible devotion and discipline, much like how enlightened sorcery is implied to be a rare feat.
            Last edited by Nabirius; 02-11-2019, 06:16 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              It's worth noting that the only kind of empowered mortal that's really gone is the "I spent 5 years meditating and pulled myself up by my bootstraps" kind.

              In 2e terms, Mist the Eternal Revolutionary is a guy who went Power Questing in the Wyld and Ku Nenavaya got an endowment from a Deathlord.


              Onyx Path Forum Moderator
              Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                It's worth noting that the only kind of empowered mortal that's really gone is the "I spent 5 years meditating and pulled myself up by my bootstraps" kind.

                In 2e terms, Mist the Eternal Revolutionary is a guy who went Power Questing in the Wyld and Ku Nenavaya got an endowment from a Deathlord.
                I wonder if you could even really say that the bootstraps kind is gone either then. They might just be as much of an oddity as the other kinds now, but not gone.

                Comment


                • #53
                  "So what's this guy's story?"

                  "He kung fu'd so hard he learned to use essence"

                  "I'm not sure you can do that."

                  "Are you gonna tell him that?"

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                    I wonder if you could even really say that the bootstraps kind is gone either then. They might just be as much of an oddity as the other kinds now, but not gone.
                    I don't think any kind of canon ninja will stop you from writing them in your game, but they're probably not going to appear in published materials, whereas others like Mist and Ku Nenayeva have and will continue to appear.
                    Last edited by VioletDreamer; 02-11-2019, 07:38 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Nabirius View Post
                      I don't know that this works for my purposes exactly, but I really wanted to let you know that this is super fucking cool! If you have the document, would you mind posting it?
                      Still working on it as part of the intended larger Storyteller's Vault work, which is currently planned to also include 1) a lot of additional 3e thaumaturgy, 2) uses for Craft (Artifact) and Craft (Geomancy) for people who can't use Essence (and pointing out the current Craft rules seem to allow mortals to repair manses, just not build them), 3) expanded material for characters empowered by Prophet-Uplifting Evocation, 4) heavily-modified Dragon-Blooded and Lunar approximations of Prophet-Uplifting Evocation and their own expanded material, 5) ideas for dealing with mortal shamans/priests/chosen ones without thaumaturgy (noting the corebook gives a special ritual to a Bride of Ahlat on p.498), and 6) a few minor sidebars on other issues as ideas come to me (like what honest mortal non-thaumaturge astrology can say by looking at the stars, which is more than nothing but still very limited, on the level of fates of nations rather than personal romance, and how it's more accurate the better your telescope is because you can see fainter stars and more subtle changes and . . .).

                      If the creation of the larger work falls through, I'll probably dump all my notes into a PDF, stick it on my web server, and point people at them. But my goal is a resource for all slightly-superhuman mortals, up where people browsing Exalted products can see it. (And my lunatic hope is to see the Storyteller Vault clause about the line adopting and canonizing community work invoked . . .)

                      Originally posted by Nabirius View Post
                      I will say that I agree that enlightenment was too easy in the past, with solars being able to create enlighted shock troops in a matter of days. I think such enlightenment should be rather rare, possibly as rare as the exalted but requiring incredible devotion and discipline, much like how enlightened sorcery is implied to be a rare feat.
                      2e, of course, originally presented a five-years-of-asceticism thaumaturgical ritual for becoming an Enlightened mortal, which got me thinking about asceticism-powers-your-kung-fu. One thing that annoyed me about that is how someone could immediately abandon the asceticism after getting the essence pool, giving me the idea that you would have to instead continually adhere to it to recharge you pool. Then I saw how similar that was to the way flaws work in 3e (noting as an incidental bonus that using it as a flaw means that Exalted characters could then use the same code to earn their Solar/Dragon/Lunar/Whatever XP [mechanically justifying the "your essence will be more refined if you adhere to ascetic discipline" idea in a subtle, non-unbalancing way]). Followed by noticing that a flaw approach would support other character types following different ethical ideals, and poking at the 2e Virtue list and then reading some sources about Confucian and Roman ethics.

                      Whether it all really works in play I can't say yet, but I love the whole interrelated mechanics-and-setting structure in my mind, down to your mortal supernatural martial artists only going nova when it's important because it takes them time to build it back up.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        By the way, I realize that the current devs are opposed, but I personally think it should be fine for Prophet-Uplifting Evocation to allow mortals to learn and use MA charms "normally". The strictly-limited numbers upliftable established in the charm avoid 2e Enlightened Mortal Factory concerns well enough, I feel. (My DB version is even stricter, allowing just one person to be "folded in the dragon's wings" by a DB, and that subject to several limits.)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                          It's worth noting that the only kind of empowered mortal that's really gone is the "I spent 5 years meditating and pulled myself up by my bootstraps" kind.

                          In 2e terms, Mist the Eternal Revolutionary is a guy who went Power Questing in the Wyld and Ku Nenavaya got an endowment from a Deathlord.
                          Hell, depending on how many potential sorcerers one thinks there are in the world, it's always possible to get a form of enlightenment constituting an initiation, which frankly includes powers through Merits that are more impressive and interesting than what Second Edition mortals generally had.

                          That was always my problem with the old Enlightened Essence, how boring it was. It didn't indicate anything, it didn't convey anything. The only thing worthwhile about it was what some people projected for the sake of Solar nation building schemes, and even those didn't often have much going for them.

                          "Let's give everybody a mote pool so they can do the thing where spending motes let's you skip the ritual and material requirements of thaumaturgy."
                          "So they can do all of the varied and weird cultural idiosyncracy stuff?"
                          "Ew, no. Just gimme the generic Artifact maintenance rituals."

                          Hell, I believe it was Eric who explicitly said that the next dedicated setting book is going to include rules for mortal magic ala the Linowan masks. That stuff is still going to exist, just not under the term and system of thaumaturgy.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                            I wonder if you could even really say that the bootstraps kind is gone either then. They might just be as much of an oddity as the other kinds now, but not gone.
                            There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but fans of the bootstraps tend to not be keen on the idea that there's some special factor at play in how their character gained their abilities when others didn't.


                            Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                            Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I'm kind of facing this problem right now, as it happens. Some people have expressed interest in a Lunar game by me, once we have the full text. And while I'd like to pit them against the Guild, rather than the Realm... I kind of do worry they'd just steamroll them.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Perhaps have the Guild control multiple states via allied (or blackmailed) client kings, have allies with local gods, and have some Outcaste or even Exigent allies for if it comes to a fight. Maybe the Guild factor is a sorcerer with demon bodyguards - though I don't think having a mortal villain is impossible, as long as you accept he's not a combat character.


                                "Wizard of Oz, you really are a wizard!"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X