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Mortals in 3e

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  • Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Yeah, creation doesn't really run on real world logic like that. Exalted healing will help get you to old age, but it's not gonna extend it very much.
    Exalted Healing has a lot of implications that aren't really thought out, yes.


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    • Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
      Exalted Healing has a lot of implications that aren't really thought out, yes.
      Look. Its an rpg. Its not meant to be simulationist.

      Well, at least I don't think it is.

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      • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
        Look. Its an rpg. Its not meant to be simulationist.

        Well, at least I don't think it is.

        They might not intend to, but they do have a lot of hooks for it being simulationist. I also, philosophically, don't think you can really divorce simulationism from a crunchy RPG - they just have too much ideological overlap. Many of the games systems such as crafting, leadership projects, disease and poison, etc., are explicitly simulationist. The combat system is trying to capture (aka, simulate) a very specific feel of dramatic combat.

        Furthermore, as humans, we assume everything that isn't explicitly otherwise stated, to generally work how it does in the real world, because we don't really have a choice. This is one of the great double-sided things about writing - people's brains will fill in blanks. And we do this based off our prior experience, so assuming that unless stated otherwise that things generally follow "real world" physics and the like is not only the default, its the only rational direction to take otherwise every session will break down into figuring out the logistics of how the world operates and what that implies for any actions you'd take. You can't have your cake and eat it to - if you're relying on your audience being able to fill in the blanks, you have to assume that unless stated otherwise, we're operating on real world logic.

        All Exalted have preternaturally long life spans. No mechanism for this is explicitly given. All Exalted get Exalted Healing for free. Exalted Healing says "The character heals quickly and perfectly, with no risk of lingering complications.". Aging is primarily caused by transcription errors during the healing process. Drawing the conclusion that Exalted Healing is the source of this, and then extrapolating that benefit to anyone getting the merit follows. More specifically it is sufficient, if not necessary.

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        • To be fair, the Exalted Healing Merit could exist at different levels of potency that is below the granularity of the Merit - hence why a Dragon-Blooded only lives for hundreds of years, while Lunars, Solars, and Sidereals can live for thousands. As such, a mortal with the Merit might well still only live somewhat longer than the regular span, especially given the way that even the Exalted tend to have the effects of old age advance rapidly on them in their twilit years.

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          • Exalted 3e is explicitly non-simulationsit if it matters any in this. There's a reason actually why the Golden Rule et al. are the first rules in the Systems chapter, rather than storied away somewhere. They make it clear that the rules don't necessairly reflect the world's workings, and that when things look like they make the setting spiral into things that don't make sense, then the rules are just wrong.

            The Exalted Healing Merit probably means you aren't likely to die of pneumonia, infection, or major bodily trauma. But you'll probably not live that much longer than expected long life for humans. Or atleast, not much longer than fantasy settings often let long-lived humans who are halthy live. This can be chalked-up to that while Creation is like Earth until stated otherwise, the thematics exist for someone who's pretty resilient to damage but ends up dying of old age anyhow. Because aging probably doesn't occur for the same reasons, it just happens superficially enough that it works the same for most cases save edge things that narrative kicks in.


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            • As the person who first brought up Exalted Healing as a life extender, I consider it less simulationist than introducing a different merit for longevity because that's requiring a distinct mechanical effect to show people live longer.


              Simple Exigent Guidelines, a work in progress

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              • Something something life force.

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                • We get a setting chapter filled with all kinds of cool and interesting mortals in 3E, and it turns out that the revival of this thread was predicated on arguing the minutiae of a Merit to contrive an explanation for living indefinitely?

                  That's a bummer.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                  • Originally posted by TaintedBalance View Post


                    They might not intend to, but they do have a lot of hooks for it being simulationist. I also, philosophically, don't think you can really divorce simulationism from a crunchy RPG - they just have too much ideological overlap. Many of the games systems such as crafting, leadership projects, disease and poison, etc., are explicitly simulationist. The combat system is trying to capture (aka, simulate) a very specific feel of dramatic combat.

                    Furthermore, as humans, we assume everything that isn't explicitly otherwise stated, to generally work how it does in the real world, because we don't really have a choice. This is one of the great double-sided things about writing - people's brains will fill in blanks. And we do this based off our prior experience, so assuming that unless stated otherwise that things generally follow "real world" physics and the like is not only the default, its the only rational direction to take otherwise every session will break down into figuring out the logistics of how the world operates and what that implies for any actions you'd take. You can't have your cake and eat it to - if you're relying on your audience being able to fill in the blanks, you have to assume that unless stated otherwise, we're operating on real world logic.

                    All Exalted have preternaturally long life spans. No mechanism for this is explicitly given. All Exalted get Exalted Healing for free. Exalted Healing says "The character heals quickly and perfectly, with no risk of lingering complications.". Aging is primarily caused by transcription errors during the healing process. Drawing the conclusion that Exalted Healing is the source of this, and then extrapolating that benefit to anyone getting the merit follows. More specifically it is sufficient, if not necessary.
                    On the other hand, if exalted healing was all there was too it there wouldn't be such a huge difference in lifespan between the various chosen. Even just taking into account the 'classic' splats from the Primordial war Dragon Blodded get around 300 years, Lunars and Solars get about 3000 years, and Sidereals get 5000. Thats a pretty huge difference given they all have the thing you are supposing is the source of their longevity.


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                    • Originally posted by TaintedBalance View Post
                      Aging is primarily caused by transcription errors during the healing process.
                      This is an irresponsible statement; the biological foundation of aging remains a matter of speculation.

                      It's also not even particularly accurate as a description of the prevailing theories of the biomolecular basis of aging, which are either the accumulation of oxidation of the nucleotides causing gradual breakdown, and an ongoing process of methylation, which is actually necessary to prevent transcription errors.

                      I think methylation might be the big one, and it seems to be a kind of evolutionary quid pro quo; it's necessary for complex organisms to have the kind of life cycles that allow them to have extremely sophisticated biological systems, but it's not something that can really be stop doing what it does, and eventually accumulates to such a degree that transcription kind of stops functioning altogether. Or at least enough that the reduced cellular activity causes some other higher level cascade failure, or renders one more highly vulnerable to complications based on diet or environment.

                      And you wouldn't really want to stop the biochemical process of DNA methylation, because it plays a very big part in preventing you from getting cancer.

                      Perhaps programmed cell death also plays a certain part of it, that being another thing important in preventing cancer; it's better to scuttle a cell in its prime and replace it rather than keep it around long enough to increase the probability of its nucleic acid accumulating errors until it starts replicating when it's not supposed to.

                      As far as I understand, these things are only vaguely related to the process of repair for gross tissue damage, at least sufficiently that a premise of healing very quickly and efficiently would not be inextricably tied to a capacity to live meaningfully longer.

                      But that's all concerning a not altogether accurate subject of real life. Setting that aside, while I don't personally doubt that basic biology functions in about the same way in the setting, I wouldn't ascribe things related to the mythic or the superhuman to it. When it comes to something like increased lifespan, I'm inclined to think it's a matter of being infused with a vitalising juju, and biology kind of has to improvise to keep up. For Exalted, the enhanced healing is just part of the package, not the mechanism by which they are bestowed their improved life.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • Originally posted by The Hug Ninja View Post
                        As the person who first brought up Exalted Healing as a life extender, I consider it less simulationist than introducing a different merit for longevity because that's requiring a distinct mechanical effect to show people live longer.
                        You do make a good point that there’s no reason to mechanicize Longevity since it doesn’t impact character mechanics. A power that can grant Longevity, SURE - that has game event impact as a character tool. But the fact that a character you’re playing can live for 200 more years if not killed isn’t really going to give them any mechanical advantage in the course of a campaign, so there’s no reason to make it a purchased merit rather than Storyteller/player fiat.


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