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Solar Presence versus Dragon-Blooded Presence

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  • #16
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    With 25000 Dragonblood in the world, some of whom are hundreds of years, I'm sure there's more Dragonblood with Presence 5 and Essence 4+ than there are Solars with Presence 1+ and Essence 1+. Probably a fair few more.

    Of course, this knowledge is cold comfort to me when I have to wait 52 sessions (!) before I can even pick up the Charm, much less start thinking about using it.


    Evocations for the demonic tattoos gained from the Pact with Mara sorcerous initiation || Pyre-Kindler (Soulsteel and Red Jade Grimscythe, Artifact 3) || Tenebrous Descent (Stormcaller's Black Jade Reaver Daiklave cousin, Artifact 5)
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    • #17
      Incidentally, I'd be happy to hear from anyone who's used a Solar with Presence charms.

      I've found them not much good unless they're also good at Socialise, but I'd like to see others' experience.


      I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by aluminiumtrioxid View Post


        Of course, this knowledge is cold comfort to me when I have to wait 52 sessions (!) before I can even pick up the Charm, much less start thinking about using it.
        Well, okay sure, but it is the absolute top of Dragonblood Presence.

        (Every Dragonblood PC I've played or played alongside has had Essence 4 since... oh, I'm going to say about 8 years ago. So I realise this is a bigger thing for others.)

        I'm not comparing a DB with it to a random Solar, I'm comparing it to a high-Essence Solar. Or Presence Supernal Solar.



        I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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        • #19
          Wizard, you're right in that Socialize is better at determining Intimacies than Presence. That's its job. (And protecting your own, of course.) Even if the Zenith in your group didn't take Socialize, are you telling me that no one in your group took Socialize? I mean, yeah, of course you're going to have problems with social influence if your group has no way of determining Intimacies.

          I think you harp on this too much, frankly. If anything, the DB has misplaced Charms, not Solars. Presence shouldn't be about 'getting Intimacies', as that is the purview of Socialize. Also, I'd have to question any ST that would allow a social-focused character to that degree to make that sort of mistake. That's like taking Archery Supernal, and not taking Dodge, Resistance, or any other way to defend yourself. You're missing a vital part of the Social system if you can't determine Intimacies.

          Also, something else that should be noted here--and likely any ST Guide that is created--is that NPC Intimacies should exist at some level to support social interaction. I'm not saying make it easy; I'm not saying to make it simple. There is some onus on the ST to not completely block the Social system by saying, 'Yeah, no, none of these guys have any Intimacies that can help.' If the ST gives them Intimacies, but the Solars can't figure out how to exploit them, then the Solars fail. But if there are no handles, the ST has failed. There's also the fact that Social system is far more of a detective game or puzzle than the Combat system in Exalted 3E, and people wanting to circumvent it to make it more like Combat I think are short-changing the system.

          I just don't see the problem. From a 'stereotypical' Solar Circle POV, the Eclipse finds the right target, and the Zenith persuades that target.

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          • #20
            If people want to see some other examples of the kinds of charms that would be useful for a silver-tongued Solar, look at the previewed charms Uncertain Sky Ambiguity and Herd-Reinforcement Stance.


            I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
              (Of course, for DBs flaring during a conversation is less problematic than for a Solar, though still awkward.)

              Incidentally, I personally had a hard time effectively conceptualising anima banners or other aura effects in such settings before I saw Kill la Kill.

              https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3cvvno


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                Incidentally, I'd be happy to hear from anyone who's used a Solar with Presence charms.

                I've found them not much good unless they're also good at Socialise, but I'd like to see others' experience.
                I'm playing a Solar with Presence Charms, but he's also Socialize Supernal.

                ​That said, I don't feel that investment into Socialize represents some sort of error in the design of Solar Presence - the hole is supposed to be there. Not every Ability can be Melee, nor should it.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                  What it's not good at is Persuasion (or Inspire).
                  Yeah, and that's my main problem. The other stuff about intimacies I fully get, read intentions is a socialize based roll so obviously it's going to have all the read intentions charms, I don't want any of those in presence. What I'm asking is why, once you know what the person's intimacies are or just decide to brute force your way through it by instilling multiple intimacies and chaining them upwards on their won, all the cool tricks related to the persuade action are in socialize. Presence is supposed to be the straightforward raw talky skill ability, it should be able to do stuff like that, and some of those tricks don't really make sense to me as specifically socialize related. I mean don't get me wrong this isn't a huge complaint or anything, it's more me being weird about this one section of the system I'm obsessive over.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                    Incidentally, I'd be happy to hear from anyone who's used a Solar with Presence charms.

                    I've found them not much good unless they're also good at Socialise, but I'd like to see others' experience.
                    I played a Solar with moderate-heavy investment in Presence and Performance and minimal (ie. not even the excellency) Socialize. I expected a lot of trouble going in because of the lack of Socialize than I actually experienced. Just talking to NPCs for a while or observing them for a scene or two was enough to give a rough idea of at least one intimacy to work with so I could usually target something blind with good odds. And if that failed (or was resisted) following up with an Inspire and then playing off that emotion usually did the trick as well. You're not wrong that it takes more rolls, but it was effective enough to wear down erode the faith of an Immaculate monk before Essence 3 with no social abilities Supernal.

                    It was also worth its weight in gold during combat. Harmonious Presence Methodology + Poised Lion Attitude meant that I could fire off a simple social action with 11 dice every round in addition to normal combat actions for 3m. They didn't all land, but as combat drags on Willpower and motes for Resolve become increasingly scarce. Enemies could choose between being Inspired with anger and easily manipulated/Instilled with some less than ideal feelings, or they could burn willpower they would rather spend on charms to resist.

                    By the time we finished at Essence 3 I was also running around with Sun King Radiance from Integrity, so anyone already broken (or any new allies watching for the first time) sad, at the ST's option, the ability to manifest a new Major Intimacy of respect with nearly every social pass my idealistic Eclipse made.

                    Socialize would have made the build frighteningly more powerful, but it never felt particularly weak or ineffective in the social arena despite the gaping blind spot. But I also went into things knowing that blind spot would be there and prepared for what it would mean for how effective he could be and how I would need to approach things. If I hadn't gone in with open eyes I can imagine that it would have been deeply frustrating.

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                    • #25
                      I guess my feeling has always been that Solar Presence should be good at 1) being glorious and 2) convincing others of the rightness of your cause. From this thread it sounds like it does pretty well at the first one, but falls down a bit at 2. Honestly, I could see Solar Presence having a charm which allows you to treat someone as having a minor intimacy towards one of your defining intimacies, because your charisma and enthusiasm for your subject leaks over into your target. Or a charm which lets you get away with instilling one of your own defining intimacies into your target with only one supporting intimacy.

                      Basically, I think Wizard's earlier suggestions mostly work, but I'd tend to require them to reflect the Solar's own defining intimacies and maybe have them fall down a bit if an opponent is really dead set against you, on the basis that Zeniths get to define their own definition of "Righteousness" in 3e, instead of applying some version of the Sun's definition of it. This way, it works for getting followers to your cause and getting your flock to do things for you, but trying to convince people to do things you wouldn't do or things that are tangential to your main goals, is where Socialize can really help.


                      ....

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                      • #26
                        I think that might be why socialize seems more powerful than perhaps it should be. With my experience in the system nobody used socialize to figure out that the sneering Satrap who treated his servants like David Lynch’s Baron Vladimir Harkonen had an intimacy of contempt for the local people. Where socialize is useful is to find out that he actually doesn’t and it’s all a show, or that he secretly loves one of them or something.

                        It happens enough to still be useful, especially in really high class socialite settings where you can pretty much assume everyone is hiding something, but a whole lot of the time you can just guess based on actions, or speech. Like if you come across a guy, respected in his community, good person to try and get on your side, and he lives out on the edge of the forest, keeping it clear of deadfall and making sure it isn’t over hunted. Tell him the Realm is coming to slash and burn down this whole forest to get at your circle, and no, it won’t matter if you’ve already skipped town because they’ll do it anyway just to be sure. You’re not 100% sure he’s got an intimacy towards the woods, but he probably does.

                        Presence could definitely do with a treatment for having more cool punchy effects, but also when you’re playing a Solar some of that has to come from you too. Like you don’t have a lot of cool feats of strength charms, but picking up a giant beer still and dousing a flaming house is more about how you applied your 30 dice double 7s.
                        Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 02-11-2019, 10:41 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                          Incidentally, I'd be happy to hear from anyone who's used a Solar with Presence charms.

                          I've found them not much good unless they're also good at Socialise, but I'd like to see others' experience.
                          You don't necessarily need to know the targets intimacy. Minor intimacies can be put in on their own without any other, and then used to chain up higher, or build a pyramid of sorts of related intimacies. Yeah that takes a while but it totally works, and hell sometimes it will be necessary even with socialize, if the character in question has intimacies that are just all bad and opposed to what you want to get to. The problem isn't viability at all, because that totally works. Its just the slightest bit boring is all I was getting at.

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                          • #28
                            I don't have time to go into what people have said, because I have got to go to work.

                            But I will just say:
                            A) Some people have said that I'm kind of making this too hard: you should use Socialise to find out their intimacies, and chances are they have a related major or defining intimacy, and not two opposed intimacies of required strength.
                            In that case... Why do you need Presence charms? Your excellency will be enough.
                            Presence charms aren't for easy situations, they're for hard ones.

                            2)Yeah, Poised Lion is great.


                            I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                            • #29
                              It's been pointed out to me, and reading the charm again I agree, that Impassioned Discourse Technique allows the solar to leverage their own intimacies as if they were the target's:
                              Originally posted by Ex3 p370
                              [...] In essence, this Charm persuades a character to act as the Solar would act. She might argue from her own compassionate principles to convince her target to be merciful or generous, or principles reflecting temperance, to convince the target to abstain from debauchery, vice, dereliction or iniquity. Likewise she might invoke valorous Intimacies to urge courageous action, or she might sell a course of action with the force of her conviction.
                              While the first part sounds mostly like fluff, the last sentence makes the context pretty clear to me.

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                              • #30
                                It’s kind of amusing seeing this thread because the very first or second time I read Solar Presence I thought “You know what this tree really needs? A Charm to instill a new Tie at Major intensity.” I’ve been forgetting to write one ever since.

                                Originally posted by sigfriedmcwild View Post
                                It's been pointed out to me, and reading the charm again I agree, that Impassioned Discourse Technique allows the solar to leverage their own intimacies as if they were the target's:

                                While the first part sounds mostly like fluff, the last sentence makes the context pretty clear to me.
                                No, those are all just descriptions of the Solar arguing in favor of her own Intimacies, which is the thing the Charm is for doing.

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