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Solar Presence versus Dragon-Blooded Presence

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  • Sunder the Gold
    started a topic Solar Presence versus Dragon-Blooded Presence

    Solar Presence versus Dragon-Blooded Presence

    I've heard that the Solar Presence Charm set has more raw power but less actual effectiveness than Terrestrial Presence Charm set.

    How so?

    Does this seem like a real problem to you?

    Would you want to fix this by adding new Solar Presence Charms, or by tweaking or replacing existing Solar Presence Charms?

  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    That wasn’t exactly the same or the entire question, I just finished writing my take on it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Flare
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

    Was already thinking about it.
    I did already, and they answered

    Leave a comment:


  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Ask them.
    Was already thinking about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

    1pt stunts, yeah.
    Resolve 6, +3 excellency, +4 intimacy, +1 stunt.

    This requires an applicable speciality though.
    Oh right, that's true, although if you're targeting an existing intimacy they'll take at least a -1 penalty from having an intimacy that supports your action. Either way though it's not exactly trivial for a Lunar or Sidereal, probably, to overcome it.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    That's not usually a good thing, see 2e's Epic Zeal of (Virtue), I think it works in this case though because it actually does kind of fit with the Solar style. It's why they don't get a charm like Soaring Zephyr Flight. Eagle Wing Style is actually a better charm for almost anything you'd care to use it for, but it isn't just straight up flight in the same way at all. It helps that the DB ones especially have their own safeguards built in, even if they subvert the normal ones.



    Wait, what, how does a DB get to 14 with just an excellency and an intimacy? Are you counting stunts/willpower?
    1pt stunts, yeah.
    Resolve 6, +3 excellency, +4 intimacy, +1 stunt.

    This requires an applicable speciality though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

    I’m 99% sure it’s the latter, and that it’s specifically a matter of Vance and Minton having fewer reservations than Holden and Morke about subverting the social influence system’s “safeguards.”
    Ask them.

    Leave a comment:


  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

    I’m 99% sure it’s the latter, and that it’s specifically a matter of Vance and Minton having fewer reservations than Holden and Morke about subverting the social influence system’s “safeguards.”
    That's not usually a good thing, see 2e's Epic Zeal of (Virtue), I think it works in this case though because it actually does kind of fit with the Solar style. It's why they don't get a charm like Soaring Zephyr Flight. Eagle Wing Style is actually a better charm for almost anything you'd care to use it for, but it isn't just straight up flight in the same way at all. It helps that the DB ones especially have their own safeguards built in, even if they subvert the normal ones.

    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

    Sure, but we know a DB can get to Resolve 14 with an excellency and intimacy. That's without charm purchases. And that's not easy to get through.
    Wait, what, how does a DB get to 14 with just an excellency and an intimacy? Are you counting stunts/willpower?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
    We'd have to wait to see those charms.
    Sure, but we know a DB can get to Resolve 14 with an excellency and intimacy. That's without charm purchases. And that's not easy to get through.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    I'm not 100% sure if this is a deliberate dichotomy, or an evolution in charm design.
    I’m 99% sure it’s the latter, and that it’s specifically a matter of Vance and Minton having fewer reservations than Holden and Morke about subverting the social influence system’s “safeguards.”

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
    We'd have to wait to see those charms.
    We have Dragon-Blooded Integrity Charms already, and everything we've heard about Abyssals so far doesn't suggest their ability to bolster Resolve will be particularly subpar compared to their Solar brethren. The only one we should feel unsure about, is Sidereals.
    Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-04-2019, 09:15 PM.

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  • Epimetheus
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Yeah, +4 Resolve for a Defining Intimacy is, frankly, enormous. That's equivalent to 8 dice.
    Obviously you can blow through mortals Resolve with an excellency, but blowing through the Resolve of a Sidereal or Abyssal or Dragonblood with Integrity charms is a very different matter.
    We'd have to wait to see those charms.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angwe
    replied
    Myeah, whatever the reason, it took a long time, a really long time to publish the core, and yes, it still looks rushed and poorly worded, and a shocking amount of Charms seem to reference a previous iteration of the rules set. It is what it is, and at this point we just need to deal with it. Still, even if I were to buy that it the leak bears some responsibility for this, which I do not, it was a conscious design choice to go for natural, inexact language. Lets just say that in my personal opinion that was a mistake.

    The exact (rather unhelpful) wording of 'Worshipful Lackey Acquisition': 'Whenever the Solar achieves a goal through lecture, prophecy, oration, or other forms of performance'. I personally believe, despite the 'other forms of performance', it would trigger of a rather broad set of particular abilities. Definitely Presence, being an essence 3 Presence charm, but also Lore and Performance. The fact that we need to discuss this is pretty annoying, actually, and very avoidable really! I also hate the 'enemies' and 'those who conspire against her' parts. Is that fluff or mechanics? Is it really only expected not to work on those who are actually inclined, or at the very least not opposed to follow the Solar in the first place? Actually, what are enemies? And really, would have been so hard to put in clear mechanical terms the level of intimacy it bestows instead of strongly implying? And what's this talk of when the effect ends in a permanent charm? Aaaaaargh... And is Flowing Mind Prana only supposed to work on the other PC's, because no one else uses xp? That can't be the intent!

    Anyway, people were saying Solars couldn't just bypass the instill part and go straight to handing out intimacies. They can, they definitely can, and better than the rest. The Charms may be unclear, or some of them, Mastery of Small Manners is pretty straightforward if only a minor intimacy, but as demonstrated, there are some which hand out Defining intimacies, even if we are left guessing when, how and to whom.
    Last edited by Angwe; 03-04-2019, 07:44 PM.

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  • Mizu
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
    All of which read as Performance actions, which makes it really odd as a Presence Charm.

    Also, the Corebook isn't poorly written so much as "rushed through the playtest phase after some asshole leaked the documents".
    Considering how damned long they took writing it I don't think its fair to say anything about it was 'rushed' as an excuse for poor charm wording.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Angwe View Post
    Well, Solars do have some charms which give out intimacies, up to Defining actually! There is Celestial Bliss Trick obviously, but yeah, that one is... questionable.
    Or treat someone as though they have a particular intimacy, such as Mastery of Small Manners.

    Leave a comment:

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