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Withering Attacks and Decisive Attacks: Question and technically problem

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  • #16
    Yeah, if his problem is that you can't one shot people then he's just plain wrong. This is what awareness investment is for. Max out that join battle.

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    • #17
      It depends on why they don't like it. Because the current system is worse in that it slows down combat and it takes much more effort even streamlined. Old system though was fast against anyone but other exalted which was when the game slowed to a halt. But my bias comes from the fact that I always found combat to be the worst part of the game. Still I would suggest you ask them why they dislike it? If it's because it's a chore and they don't like combat I would suggest a combat light game then.
      Last edited by Epimetheus; 02-22-2019, 03:20 PM.

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      • #18
        There is the possibility that what they dislike intersects with exactly what it's trying to do, and in that case I don't know how to convince them beyond espousing the merits of cinematic combat

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Beans View Post
          I'm pretty sure that you can sneak up on a foe and one-shot them with a Decisive. Starting a battle in stealth (some Charms specifically enhance that, even) and then using your first turn to make a surprise Decisive attack is readily possible, and generally reduces the ability of the target to defend against your attack.
          Yeah. You can absolutely launch a Decisive from an ambush.

          One shots with this method are hard without Charms, but that's kind of on purpose because it protects the players from getting killed by sneak attacks too. Even so, a maxed out mortal can still get a decent 3-5 damage on a successful ambush... which is going to make finishing off the opponent pretty easy.

          A Solar assassin with Fire & Stones Strike (two Melee Charm investment), Stalking Wolf Attitude (two Stealth Charm investment), and Awakening Eye (four Awareness Charm investment) is still using Essence 1 Charms and will trivially one-shot anything without enough Awareness to spot them.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Hark View Post
            At that point may as well go back to 2e. The changes in the combat engine are the biggest draw and motivation for 3e. Little else in the system is enough to full edition change, and if you actually like any of the other systems in 3e they should be easy enough to back convert to 2e.
            I don't fully agree with this. 3e has a lot going for it outside of combat too. I personally really enjoy the social system and crafts system, sorcery is also fantastic!

            I do have to agree though, unless you want to go to the whole trouble of stitching up the two systems into some strange combo of the two (and rewriting a bunch of charms) you are better off just sticking with 1/2/2.5e or maybe just playing a different game all together with similar theme?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Pram View Post
              I think the issue one of my player has (and it's kinda passive agressive) is that he didn't like the fact that he couldn't sneak up on mortal/exalt/etc and knock him out in a one shot hit. That the whole Withering/Decisive bogged everything down.

              In my opinion he's wrong... but his argument is that Withering doesn't do any real damage... I countered that in 3rd Edition the combat is abstracted... but he doesn't budge. In the end I think he likes simulation.

              Anyways thank you for your replies... I've been always a fan of clear rules.. but in Ex3 some parts of it is obscure on purpose and that's fine with me... it's just I have to figure out how to play with what I have.
              Oh wait, is THAT the issue? Because it's not really an issue, and no, it isn't solved by a wishy-washy "Well the ST really SHOULD just bluh bluh bluh." There's cold hard rules for this. Let me break it down.

              I want to one shot a simple mortal

              Difficulty: Trivial for any remotely combat build

              On page 208 of the corebook it says that trivial opponents are things like a single soldier against a Fair Folk Noble or Celestial Exalt. So if we compare a single mortal soldier to a Solar Exalt of the Dawn caste, then yeah, they're 100% that. It then goes on to give us mechanical traits for how to treat them, which is as a Size 0 battlegroup, which means withering damage goes right to their health track, and decisive damage gets free bonus levels. With any remotely powerful withering attack from stealth, where all your successes are added onto damage and you double 10s, will sink them instantly.

              Wanna know what's even better? A group of palace guards, say, 6 or so, is also a battlegroup. It's actually easier to one shot them in this edition than last, because you don't even need a single charm to do it!


              I want to one shot a DB with no ox-bodies

              Difficulty: Trivial for specific builds, difficult for non-specialized ones

              This is a bit harder, although as some have pointed out Essence 1 charms exist that can do it. Combine a really good Join Battle Fire and Stones, and Thunderbolt Attack Prana, then either Blinding Battle Feint if you aren't walking in on a true Ambush, or Awakening Eye, if you are, for a full excellency. That being that case, you're going to roll into battle with like around 13 initiative. You roll to attack, obviously hitting with at least 3 overflow successes that turn into damage, and with TAP you just need 4 successes on 16 dice, so bam, dead Exalt.


              I want to one shot a DB with many ox-bodies

              Difficulty: Trivial for specific builds who have the right Supernal abilities, difficult to impossible with Essence 1 charms.

              Use the above combo except hit them with either Fivefold Fury Onslaught or Invincible Fury of the Dawn. Add in charms like Hungry Tiger Technique to up the damage even further and let you deal dozens of levels with a single action. You can do this with so many supernal MAs or Solar combat abilities I won't even list the ways. If you want to do it and be Stealth Supernal instead, use Shadow Victor's Repose to get double join battle, Stalking Wolf to keep generating more and more initiative until you can strike, or alternatively do that after firing off a Steel Storm Descending from thrown.


              I want to one shot a DB with many ox-bodies (But I'm not a Dawn or a Night, and also I'm Essence 1)

              Difficulty: Very difficult

              I think, in this case, your only hope is to go into stuff outside the charmset. There might be artifacts with certain evocations that allow you to do it, alternatively you could get your hands on some Arrow Frog Venom, or some Yozi Venom and do everything you can with an essence 1 combat ability to stab them a bunch with decisive attacks from base initiative, like by using Peony Blossom Attack and the like, but if they have 5 ox-bodies they probably have good rolls to resist that. Also be sure to add in Thunderbolt Attack Prana and stuff to get as much damage out of it as you can, even if you are launching half your attacks from base initiative.



              EDIT: I should mention when I say "trivial" I mean that there is almost no chance if it failing, not that it won't drain your motes and willpower like a bastard.
              Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 02-22-2019, 07:23 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Snakesandsuns View Post
                I don't fully agree with this. 3e has a lot going for it outside of combat too. I personally really enjoy the social system and crafts system, sorcery is also fantastic!

                I do have to agree though, unless you want to go to the whole trouble of stitching up the two systems into some strange combo of the two (and rewriting a bunch of charms) you are better off just sticking with 1/2/2.5e or maybe just playing a different game all together with similar theme?
                Any of those systems is fairly trivial to port to 2e. People refuse to acknowledge it, but the social systems are a fairly small generational change from 2e. The big detail that makes it look different is that things that are assumed to be understood in 2e and explicitly stated and sometimes strictly enforced in 3e.

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                • #23
                  Thanks again for all your imput!

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                  • #24
                    And if they still won't budge after all this, you should consider upgrading to some better players


                    3e Scavenger Lands map
                    3e Combat tracker card
                    2e Nexus map

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Pram View Post
                      Thanks again for all your imput!
                      No problem, let us know if you have any other questions.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Megapope View Post
                        And if they still won't budge after all this, you should consider upgrading to some better players
                        Yes, lol, or maybe just having another misunderstanding. The trivial opponents sidebar is easy to miss, although it's rules are pretty concrete.

                        I will say this though, if Pram's players really super loved 2e's chargen, which could easily mean Essence 5 with a Grand Goremaul, Infinite (Melee) Mastery, Jade Hearthstone Bracers and Invincible Fury of the Dawn, then 3e probably isn't for them. It's not designed to be that way and it's hard to make it play that way.

                        On the other hand if your characters don't feel powerful, especially if they're Solars, I can guarantee you with almost 100% certainty that there's a small rules hiccup there.

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                        • #27
                          I'll also chime in with my two cents.

                          If you can't make the Ex3 system work there are a lot of alternatives. Godbound, Cortex Command "Exalted: Blood and Fire", Quixalted, Fate Core, Burning Wheel Exalted Hack, and possibly more.

                          In terms of ease of use, I'd rate say Quixalted/Fate Core are the simplest to use.


                          Read my shit at my homebrew topic, 2.5e and 3e material!
                          Play Alchemical's in 3e now, you're welcome.

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