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  • When can you Combo Charms?

    So the discussion about Lunar Martial Artist made me curious about how restrictive the prohibition on Martial-Arts combos really is, especially when it comes to Solars. I confess, I honestly don't know the rules on this subject all that well, and I can't seem to find a page that explains it completely. So here are a bunch of examples, my take, please correct me if I am wrong.
    1. A Solar wants to use charms from 2 different abilities to enhance the same roll. Consider a supplemental Resistance charm that enhances an attack if the user took a hit in the prior round, the user wants to use it to supplement a Simple Brawl charm that is a direct attack.
      • This seems fairly rare, for instance, performance and presence are often different enough rolls that you can't simply combo them. But there might be some edge cases, especially in other splats. Flurries of 2 different actions using their own charms seem uncontroversial, but what if the flurry is created by a charm
      • If this is okay, would it be okay for the Brawler to then also use another supplemental charm from the brawl tree to help out?
    2. An Exalt wants to benefit from the effects of charms from one tree while using another. Say a DB integrity charm allows the user to gain more benefit when channeling an intimacy to protect the same intimacy that is under threat, they want to activate that effect as part of a performance roll to defend the honor of their comrades.
      • Second, there's a scene long passive buff from the athletics tree that the person wants to gain for a melee attack.
    3. Evocation + Melee/Brawl/Resistance
      1. Evocations + Martial Arts?
      2. Evocation + Evocation? From different artifacts?
    4. Using native charms to enhance martial arts?
      1. What about taking Single Point Style in order to take the form, then using Melee attacks while in the form? Can you use the Scene long onslaught-nullifier from melee while Single Pointing?
      2. Consider the use of Righteous Devil Style, which creates a Presence roll to intimidate, can you enhance that with Presence charms?
      3. What about the first topic but for MA, supplemental resistance charms combining with MA charms?
        1. Earth Dragon style combined with Resistance charms for extra soak?
        2. Counterattacks created by MA or Melee being used by the other skill?
    5. Evocations + MA?

  • #2
    No way near an expert but i'll try to help you out.

    1. Generally if a charm from a non-attack based ability says it will improve an attack that charm can generally improve attacks from any ability, although there may be restrictions, Thunder-Bolt Attack Prana from athletics can be used with any melee attack, but not ranged attacks for example, your theoretical resistance charm could likely combine with any attack ability on the other hand. However two attack abilities cannot be combined because you have to pick one to roll with and can't supplement one with charms from the other unless it expressly says so like with Thunderclap Rush Attack

    2. Social charms are similar with presence, performance and socialize being the active "attack" abilities. Integrity in this case would be like resistance was in your previous example, generally used for defense unless an ability allowed it to improve an "attack" in which case it could be used to support any ability.

    3. Weapon Evocation can be combined with any ability that uses them as a weapon (melee for swords, archery for bows, ect) but not otherwise, this extends to MA as well as long as the artifact is a form weapon. You also cant combine evocations together because you can't hit someone with two swords in the same strike (unless you taped them together xD). If an armour's evocations let it aid attacks then you could combine them with any attack ability and potentially a weapon's evocations as well if you had both.

    4. Ability based exalted can't combine native attack charms with MA ones, but can combine MA charms with defensive abilities. 1) Single Point Form's bonuses only apply to Single Point attacks so if you attacked with melee your attack wouldn't get the buff. Similarly Dipping Swallow Defense applies to melee parry so wouldn't benefit a parry made with Single Point, although you could still use it and a melee parry while in the form. 2) If you use presence for the roll you can buff it with presence charms.
    ‚Äč

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    • #3
      1. Is actually in the core with Thunderbolt Attack Prana and Leaping Tiger attack. You can enhance any abilities attacks with the charms so long as it's listed, which I believe are Melee and Brawl. It is still a Brawl attack, and can use other Brawl charms.

      2; it depends on how it's worded. If you mean something like 'Add an additional point to the Exalt's Resolve for having X Intimacy' as a charm, then it wouldn't work; after all, the Exalts Resolve has no baring on the result of their Performance roll. If it's adding dice to an action then it would follow rule 1; if it would effect is in theory it should apply.

      3a; allowed if the weapon is an appropriate form weapon I believe.
      3b; allowed if it's reasonable, such as two different swords you're using at once (probably?) Or the Evocations of a hearthstone set in your sword and the sword's own Evocations.

      4; As per the original writers thus uncertain if it still applies, when you do an attack or apply a Defense, you say what kind of Attack or Defense it is. If you forgo using Single Point Charms on your attacks I am fairly certain you can just swap to Melee on your own, but the sword has to keep using Single Point; you just won't get form benefits from Single Point to your Melee attacks.

      A Melee Defense would use your Melee Charms, a Martial Arts one would not. I assume in this sequence if you have Melee's negator up then defend with Single Point, you take Onslaught from that attack but not attacks you are defending with Melee, since Onslaught is applied as part of the attack. The charm wouldn't turn off if you used Single Point Defense, but it wouldn't apply.

      4b; I'm pretty sure you are supposed to be able to do this. I think the mixing only applies specifically to combat charms, so stuff from Melee/Brawl, Resistance/Dodge, and Athletics (maybe? Or maybe just the Athletics charms that enhance attacks.)

      4c1: pretty sure that you have to pick one or the other, either using your Resistance Charms or your Earth Dragon Charms.

      4c2: the counterattack should say. If it doesn't, I assume you can't.

      5: you asked this already.

      Comment


      • #4
        The basics actually aren't that complicated.

        Are you making an Attribute+Ability roll? The only charms that can enhance are it are ones of that Attribute, or that Ability.
        If you're rolling Charisma+Performance, the only Instant charms that can enhance it are Charisma or Performance.
        If you're rolling Dexterity+Brawl, the only Instant charms that can enhance it are Dexterity or Brawl.

        This also applies to derived values like Parry, Resolve, etc. You can't use a Sail excellency to boost Resolve, only an Integrity excellency. You can't use a Melee excellency to boost the Parry derived from Dexterity+Martial Arts.

        (Lunars have some special rules about things like being able to use Strength charms on Dexterity-based attacks, but that's their special tech.)

        Also, if a charm creates an attack, that has to be made with that charms' Ability or Attribute.
        For example, a Martial Arts charm that creates a Counterattack will be a Dexterity+Martial Arts roll. A Dexterity charm, on the other hand, creates a counterattack with Dexterity+Whatever is appropriate.

        But then of course, you have charms that specify they can work with other abilities; there's several Athletics charms that can enhance attack rolls, for example. It's noted at the end of their charm text.



        But... of course, there's actually a whole bunch of exceptions and fringe cases.


        Martial Arts' special rule isn't anything about the above. Of course you can't use a Brawl charm to enhance a Dexterity+Martial Arts attack, just like you couldn't use a Presence charm.

        Martial Arts' special ability is that you can use some Martial Arts rolls to increase Evasion, even though that's derived from Dexterity+Dodge.

        The easiest way might be to assume any time a Martial Art charms says "attack" it means "attack with Attribute+Martial Arts" and any time it says Parry it means "Parry derived from Attribute+Martial Arts."
        (Obviously the attribute will normally be Dexterity, but that's not important here)


        It's also important to note that this only applies to Attribute+Ability stuff. It does not apply to soak. So you can absolutely combine soak charms from Martial Arts with soak charms from Resistance. After all, soak isn't derived from Resistance in the first place.


        Unfortunately... this isn't 100% clearly explained, because the Developer at that time had the attitude that charms should be written in natural language, and presumably all this stuff would just be obvious from the way the charms are written (for example, if a Presence charm says it makes an attack do +X damage vs Creatures of Darkness, then obviously it can enhance an attack, it doesn't need a little rule at the bottom to say so). And a lot of the time it is; if a Martial Arts charm says you get +1 Evasion, it's pretty obvious it gives you +1 Evasion despite the fact that non-Dodge charms can't boost Evasion. But other times it isn't.

        For example, what about scene-long or tick-long charms that increase attack rolls or parry rolls? Presumably that only applies to your Parry or Attacks from that Ability. But can you activate Snake Style (+Dex soak, -1 on enemy attacks) and then just fight with a warhammer?

        What about charms that increase Parry and Soak? Can you activate them when using a Melee weapon to just get the soak bonus? Or charms that do stuff like take away damage from enemy attacks? Is that representing being really good at parrying, or being really good at soaking?
        Most of the time, the charms are clear; for example, the Mantis charm that gives you a Parry bonus and a Soak bonus is very clear that you only get the Soak bonus if you use your Parry. But there are other charms that are a bit less clear.


        Originally posted by Nabirius
        but what if the flurry is created by a charm
        If the charm creates a flurry (and the only examples I can think of are magical flurries of attacks) then technically it should all be the Ability of that charm (but natural language).

        If the charm lets you ignore penalties on a flurry, then you can flurry whatever. Though the charm may have specific restrictions (like "you can flurry a Full Defence and blah").

        • If this is okay, would it be okay for the Brawler to then also use another supplemental charm from the brawl tree to help out?
        I think I'd need an example.

        • Second, there's a scene long passive buff from the athletics tree that the person wants to gain for a melee attack.
        Does the charm say it can enhance an attack with other abilities? Then you can. Otherwise you can't.

        (For example, Increasing Strength Exercise specifies it enhances your Strength, and all rolls that are based on that, as well as damage.)

        1. Evocations + Martial Arts?
        If it's a form weapon, sure. Or a non-weapon that can enhance other stuff, like Arete (the magic prosthetic hand).

        Evocation + Evocation? From different artifacts?
        If there's some reason they both apply. Like a magic sword and a magic belt. Obviously if you attack or Parry with the Forgotten Blade, you can't enhance that attack or parry with Sirrush that's holstered on your belt.

        What about taking Single Point Style in order to take the form, then using Melee attacks while in the form?
        You can take Melee attacks with your normal turn. I believe the extra turn for the sword has to be Martial Arts.

        Can you use the Scene long onslaught-nullifier from melee while Single Pointing?
        You can use it to ignore Onslaught penalties when making a Melee Parry. Not when using a Single-Point Parry. Just as it wouldn't let you ignore Onslaught penalties with your Brawl Parry.

        1. Consider the use of Righteous Devil Style, which creates a Presence roll to intimidate, can you enhance that with Presence charms?
        Of course. It's a Presence roll. You can enhance it with Presence charms, but not Sail, Brawl, Archery, Martial Arts, etc.

        Earth Dragon style combined with Resistance charms for extra soak?
        Sure, why not? Soak's nothing to do with an Ability.
        Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-27-2019, 06:08 PM.


        My characters:
        Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
        Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          But can you activate Snake Style (+Dex soak, -1 on enemy attacks) and then just fighting with a warhammer?
          Do you know the answer to this cause im kinda curious now?

          Comment


          • #6
            I think you can. But I'm not sure.

            I'm sure that you could use a firewand in one hand while holding your snake-form with the other. Or have a firewand in one hand for archery and a hook sword in the other.

            But if you're not holding a form weapon with either hand, I'm not sure.


            My characters:
            Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
            Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
              I think you can. But I'm not sure.

              I'm sure that you could use a firewand in one hand while holding your snake-form with the other. Or have a firewand in one hand for archery and a hook sword in the other.

              But if you're not holding a form weapon with either hand, I'm not sure.
              I'm pretty sure you can't. Form charms only work while emulating the style and you can't use snake style with a warhammer.

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              • #8
                The only restrictions on form charms is that you can only be in one at a time. As well as wearing armour allowed by the style.

                The bonuses from the form charm hit the usual restrictions, so no enhancing attack rolls from other abilities etc.

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                • #9
                  I find it regrettable that there isn't an explicit rule that if you stop fighting in the MA style exemplified by its Form Charm, the Form automatically ends. I know that I would houserule it that way at my table.

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