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Demons - must they be dangerous?

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  • Demons - must they be dangerous?

    OK. Demons. Must they be dangerous?

    I did a demon compilation:

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...e-first-circle

    A shitton of demons there are kinda benign. Or hassling. But very rare are dangerous.

    I just got from this thread:

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...orality/page16

    OK. Question.

    Must demons be dangerous? Must a demon, by its very presence, be inimical to mortal society?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
    OK. Demons. Must they be dangerous?

    I did a demon compilation:

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...e-first-circle

    A shitton of demons there are kinda benign. Or hassling. But very rare are dangerous.

    I just got from this thread:

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...orality/page16

    OK. Question.

    Must demons be dangerous? Must a demon, by its very presence, be inimical to mortal society?
    I don't think they necessarily need to be dangerous per se, but they do have to be... strange, odd, alien and/or disquieting. Neomah, for instance, aren't precisely dangerous natively (any more than a strong human is; they're not bad combatants) but the way that they create life without regard to what that life will do will inevitably lead to issues.


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    • #3
      My understanding is that demons are dangerous, effectively, due to extreme values dissonance; i.e., Malfean civilization runs on and inculcates values that, yes, are intrinsically inimical to mortal ones.

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      • #4
        Not really. Demons are always alien, but as far back as Games of Divinity we had the Sesseljae and Angyalkae, both of whom are relatively harmless.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Mockery View Post
          Not really. Demons are always alien, but as far back as Games of Divinity we had the Sesseljae and Angyalkae, both of whom are relatively harmless.
          Um... No.

          Sesseljae and Angyalkae can most definitely be disruptive.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Accelerator View Post

            Um... No.

            Sesseljae and Angyalkae can most definitely be disruptive.
            Disruptive != Dangerous

            A Sesselja isn't going to be harming people by default (places that serve intoxicants are in danger, I suppose, but unless they serve a medicinal use the stomach bottle bug isn't going to do more than consume stock and make unhappy customers), and while an Angyalka may cause some uncomfortable personal insights, they aren't particularly aggressive, either.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Accelerator View Post

              Must demons be dangerous?
              Who said they must be?

              Hell, half the demons that actually are dangerous don't need to be, so long as they're carefully managed; don't summon more hopping puppeteers than you can keep an eye on, and keep people from getting a taste of their mucus, and you should be able to avoid tragedy.

              First Circle Demons don't need to be dangerous, but they should be a bit monomaniacal. Not just capable of an unusual thing, but fixated on it to a point where they'll cause a stir if left to their own devices.


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • #8
                OK.

                Sesseljae consume poisons.

                They die.

                Two more are born. These aren't bound. What happens next? A veritable plague. No more alcohol. No more drugs. No more medicine. No more painkillers. And these... Insects are jumping in and out of people's bodies.

                That's disruptive.

                And angyalkae... 13 dice. Greatest possible mortal skill, with charms added. And it is played nonstop. Yes, there will be suicide.

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                • #9
                  This isn't accurate. They reproduce in the demon city by swarming to consume something especially poisonous, but not every one of them that dies of poison singularly, anywhere in existence, necessarily splits into two unbound demons.

                  Also, even in 2e, social influence couldn't drive you to suicide, nor were angyalkae particularly prone to try and cause such.
                  Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-05-2019, 11:07 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                    OK.

                    Sesseljae consume poisons.

                    They die.
                    Sometimes they die. Sesseljae in both prior Editions were given excellent Resistance. In the descriptive text, sesslejae dying en masse is attributed to them encountering substances sufficient to cause discomfort to the Yozis.

                    Originally posted by Accelerator
                    Two more are born. These aren't bound.
                    What are you basing this on? Neither previous write-up described either of these eventualities.

                    Originally posted by Accelerator
                    What happens next? A veritable plague.
                    Jesus Christ, how much poison was there in this town?! Maybe it deserves to be overrun by stomach bottle bugs.

                    Originally posted by Accelerator
                    No more painkillers.
                    Probably no painkillers from the start...

                    Originally posted by Accelerator
                    And these... Insects are jumping in and out of people's bodies.

                    That's disruptive.
                    Well, for one thing, if there's no more alcohol, why are the demons jumping in and out of people's bodies? They primarily do that to get at alcohol.

                    Second, sure, if the event that you're describing happened, it would be disruptive.

                    Unless anybody has any salt. Some salt will make them go away. Surrounding them in a circle of it will make them very reluctant to go anywhere else.

                    Would you make the Occult roll to figure that out very high difficulty? I wouldn't.

                    Originally posted by Accelerator
                    And angyalkae... 13 dice. Greatest possible mortal skill, with charms added. And it is played nonstop. Yes, there will be suicide.
                    Wow, that escalated quickly. What was up with these people's lives that being exposed to the music that gives them the measure of it results in suicide?

                    Because in a world like most of Creation, which probably doesn't have the best emotional support systems, that was probably going to end up happening in those cases anyway. Maybe spread out a bit more, but still perhaps comparatively uncommon.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                    • #11
                      As far as I see it demons have two major issues with integrating into human society.

                      -Spirits in general are a little like neurodivergent people who were born with superpowers, which gives them much less incentive to examine their behaviours and rein in their worst impulses.
                      -Living in Malfeas is going to make a lot of demons pretty maladjusted. Most First Circle demons don’t know what it means to have rights as an individual and associate vulnerability with death. A Neomah sets herself up as an exotic courtesan; can she handle being confronted by a jealous spouse?


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                        A Neomah sets herself up as an exotic courtesan; can she handle being confronted by a jealous spouse?
                        Is the neomah trying to pass themselves off as human?

                        I wonder how jealous pre-existing relationships intersect with the rule of thumb "assume it's a god and call a priest".

                        (Note that my basis for making the roll to figure that salt will ward off an overenthusiastic sesseljae not being hard would be the world having a general rule of "when in doubt, throw salt at it")


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Is the neomah trying to pass themselves off as human?
                          Well, the premise is that she's trying to integrate into human society. A Neomah's general apperance isn't exactly outside Creation's broad range of what can be considered human even if she's not exactly lying about what she is.


                          Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                          Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                          • #14
                            There probably are a few demons who you wouldn't mind having as neighbors (as long as you don't mind your neighbors being a bit eccentric), but there are no demons who could be mistaken for normal, well-adjusted members of human society. They're all weird, but some of them are weird in ways that aren't likely to hurt you.

                            A demon trying to fully integrate into human society would probably run into a lot of awkward misunderstandings, but some of them could manage. A neomah could probably do it if someone who understands both mortal and Malfean culture made an effort to explain things to her.

                            If sufficiently powerful humans can adapt to living in Hell (e.g. Gemstone Ocean Hero), some demons can surely adapt to living among humans.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jefepato View Post
                              A neomah could probably do it if someone who understands both mortal and Malfean culture made an effort to explain things to her.

                              If sufficiently powerful humans can adapt to living in Hell (e.g. Gemstone Ocean Hero), some demons can surely adapt to living among humans.
                              I don't know. Unless they changed demons, they can't really adapt. Your neomah could be made to understand certain rules of living in Creation, but never understand why the rules exist. It would be like living next to a sociopath, they only follow rules because they don't like the penalty, not because they understand why the rules are what they are.

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