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Demons - must they be dangerous?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Fun factoid: You can be a murderer and a florist simultaneously.
    A human, yes.
    A 1st circle demon...? Only if there was a need for murderous florists.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Aoi Cobalt View Post
      But the problem that you seem to be ducking is that a human can change themselves, without an outside force.
      This is definitely true? That's news to me - did someone manage to resolve the whole "free will vs. determinism" thing while I was having my Exalted session?
      Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-10-2019, 05:52 PM.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        This is definitely true? That's news to me - did someone manage to resolve the whole "free will vs. determinism" thing while I was having my Exalted session?
        So you are down for option 2, that free will does not exist for humans in the game. Well that certainly answers a lot of questions.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Aoi Cobalt View Post
          So you are down for option 2, that free will does not exist for humans in the game.
          I just don't feel that humans in the game should concretely be said to have libertarian free will when we in real life cannot. If the actions of humans in the Exalted setting are somehow mystically not the products of tens to millions of large and tiny, visible and invisible factors that weigh on the decisions they make... well, that basically makes them weird aliens, to me.

          Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-10-2019, 06:25 PM.

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          • #95
            I think putting down that Demons cannot change themselves, especially when we have several canon examples of them doing so, makes the game poorer and cuts off story ideas.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
              I think putting down that Demons cannot change themselves, especially when we have several canon examples of them doing so, makes the game poorer and cuts off story ideas.
              Once again, I feel there is a meaningful difference between something changing a demon and a demon changing itself. (Free will vs organic programming debate aside).
              We already have had the writers tell us that demons can not be heroic. They lack that ability.
              This means they also lack the heroic ability to decide that they want to redeem themselves (unlike humans, who can, as per the Abyssal redemption trope).
              The easiest way I can see demons not having any ability to choose these is that they also lack the ability to choose to be something they are not. For example, we know there are demonic bartenders exist. I would say that existing demons are not turned into bartenders, but a 1st circle species of demonic bartender exists (summonable for your next exotic Cynis party!). If the need for a demonic florist exists, then a 1st circle demon florist exists.

              Yes, this cuts off several story ideas. But then the writers decided that those story ideas weren't part of Exalted (just like several story ideas are cut off because Creation has a celestial bureaucracy of many gods and no reward for good souls and punishment for wicked souls). If the current writers of 3rd Edition wish to change this, they will inform us (in due time, no doubt).

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              • #97
                Wait. Redeem?

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                  Wait. Redeem?
                  Is that not a heroic story?
                  I have chosen to be an avatar of death, and to kill the whole world.
                  Wait, I think that I have mischosen. Instead of just continuing easily down this path, I will heroicly fight my fate and redeem myself.
                  Standard Abyssal storyline.

                  Demons lack heroic options, so you can not have one decide that it will no longer be what it is, and become something that is not a "Creature of Darkness". Therefore not redemption stories for demons can exist.

                  And if a demon can not make a choice to change itself in that way, it stands to reason that it also lacks the ability to change itself in other ways, that is to deny its demonic purpose. A blood ape was made for a purpose. It can not change the its purpose is, it can not become something is was not meant to be. It can be more competent and better at what it does, but it is still a blood ape.

                  As a Solar, I can make it change. With my mighty powers, I can make it a blood ape florist.
                  But the blood ape on its own can not choose to become a florist.

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                  • #99
                    ..... Did you not...

                    Have you read Exalted? Like, enough to pick up on the themes and subtext?

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                    • Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                      ..... Did you not...

                      Have you read Exalted? Like, enough to pick up on the themes and subtext?
                      This is rude. Please rethink your approach.


                      Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                      Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                      • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                        This is rude. Please rethink your approach.
                        Alright fine. I'll humour you.

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                        • Originally posted by Aoi Cobalt View Post
                          Is that not a heroic story?
                          I have chosen to be an avatar of death, and to kill the whole world.
                          Wait, I think that I have mischosen. Instead of just continuing easily down this path, I will heroicly fight my fate and redeem myself.
                          Standard Abyssal storyline.

                          Demons lack heroic options, so you can not have one decide that it will no longer be what it is, and become something that is not a "Creature of Darkness". Therefore not redemption stories for demons can exist.

                          And if a demon can not make a choice to change itself in that way, it stands to reason that it also lacks the ability to change itself in other ways, that is to deny its demonic purpose. A blood ape was made for a purpose. It can not change the its purpose is, it can not become something is was not meant to be. It can be more competent and better at what it does, but it is still a blood ape.

                          As a Solar, I can make it change. With my mighty powers, I can make it a blood ape florist.
                          But the blood ape on its own can not choose to become a florist.
                          Exalted says much about morality, by saying nothing at all.

                          Creature of darkness? That's not a crime. That just means youre on the sun's shitlist. Sesseljae eat poison. Eat disease. And cure wounds. And are very compassionate. They're creatures of darkness. So are neomah, who are more compassion and trustworthy than the average mortal. And so are Angelkyae, harpists who only desire to play music.

                          Creature of darkness? That means notbing. When they say 'demon', they mean its alien and odd. Not strange.

                          Also, there was an entire school written up in malfeas compass. An agatae that learnt thaumaturgy and sorcery. He got it from a sorcerer, then decided to start up a school. No commands. No force. From philosophical jewel wasp that spends its days contemplating alien philosophies to teacher.

                          And hell, he has students. Students wishing to better themselves and learn thaumaturgy and sorcery. How is that not becoming greater and something different than before?

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                          • Originally posted by Jenna Moran
                            In a way, a good description for what they've lost is the capacity for heroism. It's that thing that stands between Solars and most WoD splats, that thing that lets you be grander than life without being monstrous. Solars can still forge a utopia, although canonically they won't. Demons don't have that option.
                            Originally posted by Jenna Moran
                            They can still be Raksi. (And worse.) They can still be better than Raksi. But they can't be the thing that the people who complain about Raksi would rather Lunars be. There's no healing for them as the world of Exalted stands. And that's why you have the demons that are all about pain and deceit and stuff—-not because it's what they are, but because it's the only direction they can go. They've lost their protagonist slot, more severely even than the Abyssals, and the only way to get it back is to be PCs in a really deviant game.


                            Yes, Exalted is a huge heroic game. Yes, that means heroic redemption is up for grabs as part of the setting.
                            But also as part of the setting, demons are denyed it. Sad, but true. Everyone except demons can get redemption.

                            Creature of Darkness is only a tag, as you said. Everyone can try and get that tag removed.., except for demons.

                            That is why I see demons as limited. Because they got deliberately limited in the setting.
                            And, until they broke the setting rules for Infernals, Yozi and demons were the only power group that could never have their plans come to pass.

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                            • Well, that certainly killed the subject.

                              But while I'm on it, I'm none too happy about what the 2nd Edition writers did to the city of Malfeas. They took what should have been one of the most alien things in Exalted and turned it into the city of Nexus for demons. I understand why, because with Infernals around, you had to have a playable city of Malfeas. But somehow it just didn't keep the alien feel. It felt like a human city with demons instead of humans.
                              I fervently hope that when the 3rd Edition writers get around to the city of Malfeas, they make it an alien and strange place (except for the area around where they keep the GSP, that I would expect to be a false front of what demons mistakenly think a human city is like, but off by enough to be disquieting).

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