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My reaction to Lilith

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  • #16
    I think that this new Lilith's depression following the death of her Solar mate is less about her loosing him and more about the unresolved issues they had at the end that would never be resolved. It is like having a huge argument with a beloved family member where both you and them said and did things that seemed perfectly rational at the time (even if it was very much heat of the moment) but afterwards, with some time to think things through one begins to realize that it may not have been the best way to have gone about it. Of course, you think you will have time to go back and set things right in a few days or weeks... only to learn that any chance at a resolution has been lost because they have passed away suddenly and unexpectedly.

    The fact that there were fights, lies and betrayals near the end suggest that when he died, things had been left unresolved and that the longer she continued to fight those who murdered the one she had loved for so long... in all the places they had defended... the more the unresolved issues of that relationship began to remind her of all that she had lost... and maybe not for the best of reasons. What does a hurt pride really matter when one is faced with what can only be described as an eternity alone because of it? Does she regret not being there to maybe save her beloved... or not having died with her mate? She has survived because that is what she does... but was that survival worth the price?

    Now with her beloved's rebirth, she might have a chance of getting some closure and finally letting these old wounds heal at last... maybe even rekindle what she once had if possible. She doesn't know what she will find... and it may end up being all for naught... but better to know one way or the other than to constantly wonder what might have been. She had been down that road once before... and it seems she is now eager not to make the same mistakes twice.

    At least this is what I am seeing from this write up for her. Simply put... she didn't break down because she lost her love... but because she lost any chance (that she knew of) of resolving the issues they had left unresolved because of her mate's death. Regret and self-doubt can be just as crippling as any wound inflicted by a weapon... sometimes more so.


    There are three types of people in the world... those who can count and those who can't.
    I reject your reality and substitute my own!

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    • #17
      It's of note that in Lilith's statblock, her feelings towards Andamani are 'ambivalence'. She's not straightforwardly happy he's back, she's ambivalent, but his rebirth has stirred her enough to take action.


      Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by JiveX View Post
        I’m of two minds, on the one hand the flagrant abuse played for spectacle bugged me— on the other I kind of feel like the third edition kinda took what little complexity was present with the issue of the usurpation and stripped it out. It no longer, to me feels like a potentially justified action that did indeed curb the excesses of a hegemonically dominant and nigh omnipotent regime (albeit replacing it with a different imperialist hegemony restricted more by its lack of power than by Its commitment to moral behavior) and I feel like lillith’s pure bliss, more or less happily married for a couple centuries backstory exemplifies that for me.

        It also kinda bugs me that she entered a centuries long fugue state because her man left her— its the sort of thing that you rarely see Hetero-male characters doing even in progressive fiction and a trope often ascribed to women. It’s not a big deal though I guess and its a big improvement over the uncomfortable way her story was handled in 2E (especially DotFA).

        On the whole though I do like the character and the fact that they made her self imposed exile a gradual thing rather than an abrupt transition, allowing her to be important in the founding of the silver pact— even if not as important as some of the other elders.
        My biggest issue is that this presents the situation as either lunars were okay with solars being monsters and didn't care about the situation that was happening when compared to the rather neutral text of the solars were becoming monsters and the sidereals and dragon blooded rose up in the core. It's kind of confirming that it seems like no lunar actually had an issue with how solars were acting before the usurpation.

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        • #19
          Mmm....

          I do not object to changing Lilith as a matter of principal. While on the whole I stand behind 2e, if you're going to be making setting modifications this is something I agree is worth consideration, much like Lillun. DotFA harped on about how controlled she was, and defining her only in that light makes her more object than individual. This is something that is very open to improvement.

          But as someone who hadn't read a pre-DotFA portrayal of Lilith before? This did not sell me on her as a cool or interesting character. I don't really get what the idea here was. She was in love with a guy in the first age, after he died she withdrew from the world, now he's back and she... might do something? I don't feel this makes her a better character. More useable in a FA Romance plot, sure, and a good 'basic' example of that, but for someone who doesn't particularly care for that side of the setting this is uncompelling.

          Also am I the only one uncomfortable with the fact that this new Lilith is basically how Desus envisioned her in the old continuity? Her life revolved around her mate and without him she retreated from the world. As problematic as the old take was, you could cast her life as an owl as one of freedom and self empowerment, rather than this which makes it more... depressing, frankly.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JiveX View Post
            I’m of two minds, on the one hand the flagrant abuse played for spectacle bugged me— on the other I kind of feel like the third edition kinda took what little complexity was present with the issue of the usurpation and stripped it out. It no longer, to me feels like a potentially justified action that did indeed curb the excesses of a hegemonically dominant and nigh omnipotent regime (albeit replacing it with a different imperialist hegemony restricted more by its lack of power than by Its commitment to moral behavior) and I feel like lillith’s pure bliss, more or less happily married for a couple centuries backstory exemplifies that for me.
            I think that has a lot more to do with what's been getting focus than statements on the legitimacy of Ex3's Usurpation. There's no attempt made by the Dragon-Blooded material to legitimise their rebellion because to them its ancient history. We're going to have to see what the Bronze Faction has to say for themselves when the time comes.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
              much like Lillun..
              You mean the little girl who sits in a well furnished room with plenty of games and companions while her unique soul harbors some exaltations? A little girl who isn't in any way a mass of tentacles and suffering? because that's how she's always been.

              Always.

              ALWAYS.


              ..."But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me"

              Message me for Japanese translations.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord View Post
                because that's how she's always been.

                Always.

                ALWAYS.
                I prefer Aspect Book: Earth's take on her - she disappears while sneaking into the Imperial Manse after the Scarlet Empress, at the behest of Mnemon, and possesses no connection to the Infernal Exalted whatsoever.

                For all we know, she's Daenerys Stormborn, sent across the sea to hide her from the vicious backbiting politics on the main continent.

                Or maybe she remained in the Imperial Manse, and when the Solars imprisoned there broke out, they took her under their wing, not knowing she's the child of the Scarlet Empress.

                Or maybe she's dead. But hey, there's options.
                Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-14-2019, 08:21 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JiveX View Post
                  Who suffered mental breakdowns as a result of the actions or death of their partner or another male figure or who react with mental imbalance to events that male characters take in stride?
                  ACHILLES.

                  Maybe Herakles?

                  Frank Castle, the Punisher.

                  Batman.
                  Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 03-14-2019, 10:36 AM.


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                    I think that has a lot more to do with what's been getting focus than statements on the legitimacy of Ex3's Usurpation. There's no attempt made by the Dragon-Blooded material to legitimise their rebellion because to them its ancient history. We're going to have to see what the Bronze Faction has to say for themselves when the time comes.
                    Right. Justifying the imperialism of the Scarlet Dynasty would be much more relevant to the living generations of Creation. It's also impossible.


                    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                      I think that has a lot more to do with what's been getting focus than statements on the legitimacy of Ex3's Usurpation. There's no attempt made by the Dragon-Blooded material to legitimise their rebellion because to them its ancient history. We're going to have to see what the Bronze Faction has to say for themselves when the time comes.
                      I mean, for the Dragonblooded the usurpation happened like 1400 years ago, that’s like 24 dragon blooded generations ago (given their extended lifespan) that’s like saying people in America don’t study Columbus’s arrival because it’s ancient history. Though I take your point, the Immaculates don’t do a lot of “reasoning” and instead take a more dictatorial ideological tact. I just think that it seems a bit silly, givent that the terrestrial book is filled with stories about how terrestrials and the realm are corrupt/mismanaging things, they didn’t bother including examples of celestial behavior that could even be pointed at by an extremist to legitimize their treatment of solars as anathema. The lunars book certainly contained a fair bit of material on lunar monstrosity at the character level, don’t get me wrong, speaking more from the perspective that basically everyone still alive at the time thought the usurpation was a horrible missdead even though it’s referenced in lunars that some lunars were on the Bronze faction’s side. Where’s my deeply conflicted lunar elder, who’s inmbeded herself in the powerstructures of the Immaculate Faith or the Realm Deliberative desguised as different dynasts since day one, hoping to curb the worst of its excesses or hold it together?

                      Not suggesting that literally should be a character, just that variance is fun.
                      Last edited by JiveX; 03-14-2019, 11:03 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                        ACHILLES.

                        Maybe Herakles?

                        Frank Castle, the Punisher.

                        Batman.
                        Achilles is a good example, but his epic sulk is notable because of how rare that sort of behavior was for Greek heroes. Lilith vanishes and no one cares, no-one comes to her tent to tell she owes it to her fledgling nation to get some help, she is so alone and isolated from lunar society at the point that she exists it (slowly) that everyone forgets about her?

                        The Punjsher just goes on a revenge spree (if I’m correct right) that’s not really mental breakdown in the same way that giving oneself the brain of an owl so as to become physically incapable of experiencing emotions is. It’s also well within the cannon of “appropriate male motivations in fiction that are actually highly problematic when played out in the real world”. I do agree there are lots more examples in comics on both sides than seems reasonable though, Greek myths too.
                        Last edited by JiveX; 03-14-2019, 10:51 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by JiveX View Post
                          Achilles is a good example, but his epic sulk is notable because of how rare that sort of behavior was for Greek heroes. Lilith vanishes and no one cares, no-one comes to her tent to tell she owes it to her fledgling nation to get some help, she is so alone and isolated from lunar society at the point that she exists it (slowly) that everyone forgets about her?

                          The Punjsher just goes on a revenge spree (if I’m correct right) that’s not really mental breakdown in the same way that giving oneself the brain of an owl so as to become physically incapable of experiencing emotions is. It’s also well within the cannon of “appropriate male motivations in fiction that are actually highly problematic when played out in the real world”. I do agree there are lots more examples in comics on both sides than seems reasonable though, Greek myths too.
                          *nods* Trying to put a bow on this, male heroes when responding to tragedy get active reactions. Punisher, Batman, Achilles, whoever: the tragic events inspire them to do stuff and become characters in their own right. Lilith is inspired to not act by her tragedy in contrast. That's rare but what few examples I can think of for it are female. Miss Havisham, if you'll permit a classic, seems a depressingly on point comparison.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JiveX View Post
                            Lilith vanishes and no one cares…
                            I don't think this is a remotely charitable read of the situation.

                            Originally posted by JiveX View Post
                            no-one comes to her tent to tell she owes it to her fledgling nation to get some help…
                            1) There's a difference between "they didn't succeed," and "they didn't try." Nothing implies the latter.
                            2) It's not presented as if the second he died, she decided to spend 100% of her time as an owl; she gradually eased into it as the pillars of her old life fell away.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post

                              *nods* Trying to put a bow on this, male heroes when responding to tragedy get active reactions. Punisher, Batman, Achilles, whoever: the tragic events inspire them to do stuff and become characters in their own right. Lilith is inspired to not act by her tragedy in contrast. That's rare but what few examples I can think of for it are female. Miss Havisham, if you'll permit a classic, seems a depressingly on point comparison.
                              Oooh how did I forget that one! And yes, to not act or else act in a way that is self negating. (Exile, suicide, withdrawal from public life, turning into an owl, etc)

                              Count alucard:
                              If something isn’t mentioned in a backstory, it is reasonable to assume it didn’t happen or if it did wasn’t a significant part of the story. However, to your point, I agree I am overstating my point; Even reading it now it’s not nessecarily reflective of how I feel holistically about the character, just me trying to clarify my limited objections. Sometimes I express things too strongly in one direction when I do that — so let me walk it back; Lilith Is much improved in this edition, something about her turning into an owl for several centuries smacks of an abjedecation of agency which, for reasons of common presentations of normative gender behavior in fiction, feels a bit more annoying to me on Lilith than it did on say leviathan. Also, as far as I can tell of the mentioned ancient (first age lunars) only three (Raksi, Lillith and Rhadika) are women explicitly and of them two have had serious bouts of mental illness or similar.
                              Last edited by JiveX; 03-14-2019, 11:35 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                                What did I miss?
                                A damned fine read.

                                Originally posted by JiveX View Post
                                If something isn’t mentioned in a backstory, it is reasonable to assume it didn’t happen or if it did wasn’t a significant part of the story.
                                I'd argue that "Someone tried to convince me to come back, but they weren't very convincing" would indeed be pretty insignificant in Lillith's story, considering it takes place over more than a thousand years.
                                Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-14-2019, 11:53 AM.

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