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My reaction to Lilith

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
    My biggest issue is that this presents the situation as either lunars were okay with solars being monsters and didn't care about the situation that was happening when compared to the rather neutral text of the solars were becoming monsters and the sidereals and dragon blooded rose up in the core. It's kind of confirming that it seems like no lunar actually had an issue with how solars were acting before the usurpation.
    3e has, to me, been very "real politik" about the Usurpation. It was at it's core, a regime change. And regime changes, at their core, are ugly, with a lot of different intersts, contradicting incentives, and so on. Part of this is that many people may have been complicit with a previosu regime, and while not agreeing with its details, are kind of pissed they were not brought to the table when said regime change was brought about.

    Note, the Introduction outright says Lunars did kill their Solar mates in the fray. It's just that for any given DB, Lunars were so part of the Solar hegemony, it's not clear that for many whether it was genuinely them being on the uprising's side, or opportunism. It might ahave been both. And again, in regime changes, it often doesn't matter.

    And also as stated, right now, that was fifteen centuries ago. The actual actors are mostlyd ead, and the actual folks involved in a lot of the Lunar war on the Realm are thos born in its aftermath. Whether Lunars careda bout the Solar corruption or not is moot, as a lot of the stuff since is about the fallout more than the reasons.


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    • #32
      The possibility of lunar conspirators still alive and hiding among the dragon blooded is one to think about, that's for sure.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        A damned fine read.

        I'd argue that "Someone tried to convince me to come back, but they weren't very convincing" would indeed be pretty insignificant in Lillith's story, considering it takes place over more than a thousand years.
        Goddamn it. Should I buy it?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Accelerator View Post

          Goddamn it. Should I buy it?

          Yes. You only have like an hour to do it.


          Raksha are my fae-vorite.

          Reincarnation of magnificentmomo.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post


            Yes. You only have like an hour to do it.
            Eh... too much work. Nevermind.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by MoroseMorgan View Post


              Yes. You only have like an hour to do it.
              I’ll second this! Despite my minor nit picks with certain parts (there are a couple charms I dont love because I think they uncomplicate certain combat options in an un-fun way, mostly the immovability charm and the auto knockback charm and besides Lilith there are a few characters I would rather have seen done differently and certain angles I would have liked to see explored— I mentioned one above— that just weren’t) I absolutely love lunars In 3E. I’m not coming at this like @sunderthegold as someone who always loved lunars even when they barely showed any of the traits that I loved about them (forgive the oversimplification). They were far and away my least favorite splat in both editions, I found them dull and boring and uninspired, and this edition I find my opinions totally reversed.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by JiveX View Post

                I mean, for the Dragonblooded the usurpation happened like 1400 years ago, that’s like 24 dragon blooded generations ago (given their extended lifespan)
                In the Realm era, the majority of Dragon Blooded barely live to a hundred. I presume that might go double for the extreme violence of the Shogunate.

                Practically speaking, the longevity of the Terrestrial Exalted comes out less as them having fewer generations, and more as them having generations of regular length in which almost everybody stays pretty until misadventure, intrigue or war takes them, and at big family gatherings there'll be a few venerable fossils who'll command a lot of attention, but probably be too busy or important for you to talk to them.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                  In the Realm era, the majority of Dragon Blooded barely live to a hundred. I presume that might go double for the extreme violence of the Shogunate.

                  Practically speaking, the longevity of the Terrestrial Exalted comes out less as them having fewer generations, and more as them having generations of regular length in which almost everybody stays pretty until misadventure, intrigue or war takes them, and at big family gatherings there'll be a few venerable fossils who'll command a lot of attention, but probably be too busy or important for you to talk to them.
                  The point remains. People in the 1600’s studied events well before the current era and their average life expectancy was half that— even not accounting for high mortality in youth. It doesn’t matter that most terrestrials don’t make it past 100 the ones that do are the social movers and shakers of the culture and therefore would inform the academic discourse. It’s just not, to me, realistic that this subject wouldn’t come up even though there would be people alive for most of the shogunate and many years of the early realm whose parents or grandparents rememebered the usurpation.

                  Also, per the core, the average life expectancy is 250-300 years— so not sure where less than a hundred is coming from. (Ex3 34)
                  Last edited by JiveX; 03-14-2019, 02:31 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                    My biggest issue is that this presents the situation as either lunars were okay with solars being monsters and didn't care about the situation that was happening when compared to the rather neutral text of the solars were becoming monsters and the sidereals and dragon blooded rose up in the core. It's kind of confirming that it seems like no lunar actually had an issue with how solars were acting before the usurpation.
                    An impression I'm getting from these write-ups is that, when it comes right down to it, the surviving First Age Lunars are a bit self-involved. Ma-Ha-Suchi is motivated partially because he wants a new Realm to be acclaimed in, Raksi has a Defining Tie to herself, Seven Obsidian Leopard spends a lot of time hanging out with ancient ghosts and spirits of violence, and, while Lilith's backstory is certainly compelling and sympathetic, I'm ultimately reading it less as severe trauma and more as fantastical melodrama.

                    The impression I get from this is that the Solar and Lunar Exalted of the final days of the First Age were collectively somewhat... insulated by their stature, the grandiosity of their lifestyles, the available means for the world to be a grand adventure. It's all intense relationships and overwrought emotions for them. For the Lunars specifically, not just because of the manner in which they're so deeply intertwined with the Solars, but also one another, through that iteration of the Silver Pact.

                    I think it's reasonable, under those circumstances, for them to have a distinct difficulty with objectivity. I think it's even more reasonable when, rather than give them the chance, their fellow Exalted independently make the decision to slaughter the Solars and destroy the Realm; unobjective enough to not fully consider how some of that destruction is not entirely on them, when there's infrastructure created to outright rebel (or at least does so as an unforeseen consequence).

                    It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that even a Lunar who did have a less invested perspective in the Solars and the Realm would still join the cause against the Usurpers, because they didn't exactly make a good show as a replacement.

                    I don't doubt that a First Age elder who is more cloistered from the Pact because they can't really fault the Sidereals and Dragon Blooded for their actions and look warily on how their fellows might govern if they win would make for a compelling and believable individual character. But I don't fault the absence of such amidst a lot of other characters that need to be put in, and don't think the most ancient Lunars come across too poorly in this world of grand melodrama and high-flying kung fu action that the response to your query is "yes, but".


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      In the Realm era, the majority of Dragon Blooded barely live to a hundred. I presume that might go double for the extreme violence of the Shogunate.

                      Practically speaking, the longevity of the Terrestrial Exalted comes out less as them having fewer generations, and more as them having generations of regular length in which almost everybody stays pretty until misadventure, intrigue or war takes them, and at big family gatherings there'll be a few venerable fossils who'll command a lot of attention, but probably be too busy or important for you to talk to them.
                      I agree with this. I feel like we sometimes drag our modernity screaming and kicking into this when we talk about perspectives and lifestyles in Creation (largely about life expectancy, politics and diet).

                      Dragon-Blooded are Exalted, Classical heroes who wouldn't be out of place in any mythic cycle. How often do heroes in just about any given mythology die of old age? Or even make it to middle age for that matter?

                      Several sources have said multiple times that not that many Dragon-Blooded make it to retirement age, and many of those are lost in their early years when Essence fever and the arrogance of youth are married to literal superpowers. Creation is dangerous enough on a default level and Exalts are typically ones to actively seek out things that can plausibly hurt them. This is all before one accounts for the fact that DBs are born into a premodern ruling class which is still human enough to be deathtrap of intrigue.

                      I also hate to bring this up, but not that many historical empires, countries or civilizations felt any great need to justify their success along any sort of empathetic criteria. They might concern themselves with how it might be justified by the perspectives of their own culture, but they are not going to feel terribly bad about having won. Any Realm scholar writing the history of a recently conquered Satrapy could easily use the notes of Bronze Faction writers as a pretty solid guideline, so I do not think that comparing a DB learning about something a similar number of generations ago automatically means they will study it in the exact same fashion.

                      On the Lilith note, my reaction was positive but it brought up a question to my mind. Lilith was already old when the Usurpation came (in as much as that has meaning to an Exalt), she and her mate had gone through an immense number of good and bad times together by the time one died. I find the 'her man left' or 'love interest axed' angles to be a bit odd in that context, if only because the following sentences went into detail about her Shogunate activities, but I am intrigued about that idea of time.

                      I can't speak for everyone but I assume most people have seen what happens when one half of a senior couple dies, more often than not it breaks the remaining half in my experience. Even those that cope are left changed by it and often develop some odd quirks (I vividly remember my grandmother sometimes talking as if my grandfather was still alive a decade after his passing) because it is hard to lose someone who you have literally built your life with. An Exalt can't grow old and I do not think their bodies can fail them the way ours can in old age. What happens to even the strongest of spirits when that grief, that scale of loss, wears down on you but your body refuses to let you rest?

                      Don't know, maybe all that some can see is the character being insufficiently strong or being subsumed by something she should just 'get over', But I sort of see the equivalent of what happens when your partner of fifty years leaves first, while your own body and the world carry on without giving you time to put the pieces back together.

                      Or maybe I am just expecting Exalted not to be just about unchanging 20-30 somethings who dont age mentally and can revert to default at the speed of a comic book superhero

                      Either way, Vance and Minton have really made 3ed into a truly lovely thing and I am happier with every new piece they give me for me and my players to explore.
                      Last edited by Gigaton-Falcon-Emu; 03-14-2019, 02:59 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JiveX View Post
                        even not accounting for high mortality in youth.
                        Strictly speaking, that shouldn't be accounted for. Infant mortality being incorporated into life expectancy averages seems to generate certain misconceptions about how long people lived, when it's closer to accurate to say that people in general could live to reasonable old age, it's just that there were a lot fewer of them around because living past infancy was more difficult.

                        Originally posted by JiveX
                        It’s just not, to me, realistic that this subject wouldn’t come up even though there would be people alive for most of the shogunate and many years of the early realm whose parents or grandparents rememebered the usurpation.
                        But do they remember it academically, or politically?

                        I wonder how many elderly German people within the last few decades have accurately remembered their actions and perspectives during the 30s and 40s.

                        {tries to remember course of discussion}

                        And as this is a point about the presentation in their respective books, I would point out that your statements are still begging a question of whether or not the knowledge being present is equivalent to it being significant.

                        If you say that people in the 1600s knew of older, even ancient, history, my question is which people? Many people? Important people? And if important, did it still heavily inform policies of the day?

                        That information concerning the specifics of the Usurpation is available to the academically inclined Dynast does not mean that such is very important with their overall society, faced as it is with the difficulties of ruling their empire. It's not important to their day to day lives. Even if their own generations were at the maximum length, more than a thousand years would not be equivalent to a couple hundred of them, because there's still more stuff happening in that time; not just to the mortal societies that exist around them, but within their own lives.

                        Living to three hundred years doesn't mean you experience that time as though it was seventy years, it means you've got to cope with enough events to make up about four lifetimes.

                        Originally posted by JiveX
                        Also, per the core, the average life expectancy is 250-300 years— so not sure where less than a hundred is coming from. (Ex3 34)
                        Under the circumstances, I think it's best to read that in terms of the average lifespan that Dragon Blooded could have lived had they not been killed. Like, the maximum lifespan their biology can afford them. Both prior Editions were consistent with the idea that few Dynasts actually survived to old age, they just didn't put a number to it. What Fire Has Wrought had a few issues to deal with, so they did, and that number was about a century, with Dynasts teetering at old age being a distinct minority.

                        And generally engaged in more practical business than academia.

                        For outcastes, I've personally got an image in which it's hard for most of them to actually make it out of childhood, but that largely reflects my fascination with the instabilities of the teenage brain combined with the revision saying that, regardless of their breeding, most Dragon Blooded Exalt in early adolescence. Setting that aside, the number of those who survive to old age definitely has to be even more of a marked minority.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JiveX View Post
                          Achilles is a good example, but his epic sulk is notable because of how rare that sort of behavior was for Greek heroes. Lilith vanishes and no one cares, no-one comes to her tent to tell she owes it to her fledgling nation to get some help, she is so alone and isolated from lunar society at the point that she exists it (slowly) that everyone forgets about her?
                          Achilles sulked in his tent, THEN his lover dies, then he goes on a rampage, then he dies.

                          Lillith's lover died, THEN she goes on a rampage, but then she doesn't die. She fights, and fights, and fights, but she never gets what she really wants, since nothing brings her lover back to her, and anything or anyone else that might motivate her also dies or vanishes, so she gradually takes longer and longer vacations, and before the Solars returned, she and all of her peers were so old that her current vacation didn't seem particularly prolonged. They all still considered her part of the Silver Pact; just taking a well-deserved sabbatical.

                          Ma-Ha-Suchi had a similar experience, where after the heirs of the Shogunate survived and built a new empire after the Fair Folk Invasion, he just sort of gave up for a bit.

                          I forget why Leviathan is considered different, but the Pact at large seems to think he was a coward who didn't help when he should, and Sha Oka'a resents him for it.

                          Raksi's experience differed from Lilith's in that Raksi was interested in building a domain to rule as queen, which clearly didn't interest Lilith at all. Lilith's hobbies didn't involve building anything that required constant investment and management.
                          Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 03-14-2019, 03:10 PM.


                          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

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                          • #43
                            I just want to say that I understand where JiveX is coming from with that side of Lilith's concept. Even when there might be cases of something roughly equivalent for masculine characters, there's a background that gives them both certain connotations that are different.

                            If Lilith was a character wholly new to the Edition, I might roll my eyes at it, but she was a certain weight of legacy from the early parts of the game, and that combined with how the concept of her having sequestered herself from her pain in an owl shape for centuries is something I find compelling leads me to file her under "problematic, but with worthwhile elements".


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              I just want to say that I understand where JiveX is coming from with that side of Lilith's concept. Even when there might be cases of something roughly equivalent for masculine characters, there's a background that gives them both certain connotations that are different.

                              If Lilith was a character wholly new to the Edition, I might roll my eyes at it, but she was a certain weight of legacy from the early parts of the game, and that combined with how the concept of her having sequestered herself from her pain in an owl shape for centuries is something I find compelling leads me to file her under "problematic, but with worthwhile elements".
                              I appreciate that and for what it’s worth I’m largely on the same page.

                              I am curious where in the terrestrial book they talk about life expectancy, having trouble finding it

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JiveX View Post

                                I am curious where in the terrestrial book they talk about life expectancy, having trouble finding it
                                That would be the "Generations in the Dynasty" sidebar found on page 100 of What Fire Has Wrought.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                                https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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