Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sidebar on Transgender Dynasts

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sidebar on Transgender Dynasts

    I was poking around in the new Dragonblooded backer book and noticed a sidebar on transgender dynasts and found it very interesting. The Empire can be remarkably progressive in some areas.
    One thing that surprised me, though, was the mention about reproduction. Yes, there are numerous weird methods on producing heirs, but there's nothing in here about, say, fully physically shifting your sex to accomplish it - nor in the section before is this listed as an option. Is that something Terrestrial magic is just incapable of accomplishing? It doesn't seem that extreme, we can already do a pretty good job with products derived from natural sources and surgery in our world, so why can't sorcery or some combination of magical plants and animals accomplish it in theirs? Shaping effects come to mind, but I can't think of any off the top of my head, least of all that they'd have access ti.

    Has there ever been anything in any of the Exalted books, aside from Lunars, which allows a change in gender on a permanent basis?


    We don't allow mages to cast spells, since this is the most unbalancing rule of all.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jachra View Post
    I was poking around in the new Dragonblooded backer book and noticed a sidebar on transgender dynasts and found it very interesting. The Empire can be remarkably progressive in some areas.
    One thing that surprised me, though, was the mention about reproduction. Yes, there are numerous weird methods on producing heirs, but there's nothing in here about, say, fully physically shifting your sex to accomplish it - nor in the section before is this listed as an option. Is that something Terrestrial magic is just incapable of accomplishing? It doesn't seem that extreme, we can already do a pretty good job with products derived from natural sources and surgery in our world, so why can't sorcery or some combination of magical plants and animals accomplish it in theirs? Shaping effects come to mind, but I can't think of any off the top of my head, least of all that they'd have access ti.

    Has there ever been anything in any of the Exalted books, aside from Lunars, which allows a change in gender on a permanent basis?
    A sorcerous working and a hearthstone can.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jachra View Post
      I was poking around in the new Dragonblooded backer book and noticed a sidebar on transgender dynasts and found it very interesting. The Empire can be remarkably progressive in some areas.
      One thing that surprised me, though, was the mention about reproduction. Yes, there are numerous weird methods on producing heirs, but there's nothing in here about, say, fully physically shifting your sex to accomplish it - nor in the section before is this listed as an option. Is that something Terrestrial magic is just incapable of accomplishing? It doesn't seem that extreme, we can already do a pretty good job with products derived from natural sources and surgery in our world, so why can't sorcery or some combination of magical plants and animals accomplish it in theirs? Shaping effects come to mind, but I can't think of any off the top of my head, least of all that they'd have access ti.

      Has there ever been anything in any of the Exalted books, aside from Lunars, which allows a change in gender on a permanent basis?
      The devs have commented on this. A Terrestrial Working can be as complete as current medical science in reality. Changing utterly to “what my physical body would be if I had received different chromosomes” including a fully functional different reproductive system would be a Celestial Working. Not beyond Dragon Blooded, but difficult.


      Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

        The devs have commented on this. A Terrestrial Working can be as complete as current medical science in reality. Changing utterly to “what my physical body would be if I had received different chromosomes” including a fully functional different reproductive system would be a Celestial Working. Not beyond Dragon Blooded, but difficult.
        That's absolute bullshit and makes no sense with the current workings. At best it is an ambition three terrestrial working until they literally retcon the book when a basic hearthstone can already do it there's no way you need a celestial working for it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
          That's absolute bullshit and makes no sense with the current workings. At best it is an ambition three terrestrial working until they literally retcon the book when a basic hearthstone can already do it there's no way you need a celestial working for it.
          What’s your basis for correlating the scale of individual hearthstone powers to the potency open ended workings?

          It is much easier to complete a Working than build a Manse.

          The Precedent of Rawar makes clear that alternate means of reproduction are more viable that full reprouctive transition. As the core book explicitly says, the rules are not perfect simulationist, and if they contradict the setting or story somewhere, it’s the rules that are inaccurate in that case.
          Last edited by glamourweaver; 03-21-2019, 11:20 PM.


          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

            What’s your basis for correlating the scale of individual hearthstone powers to the potency open ended workings?

            It is much easier to complete a Working than build a Manse.

            The Precedent of Rawar makes clear that alternate means of reproduction are more viable that full reprouctive transition. As the core book explicitly says, the rules are not perfect simulationist, and if they contradict the setting or story somewhere, it’s the rules that are inaccurate in that case.
            Because you can completely make new species at ambition three ones that can breed true. All mundane species not limited to simply animals. They just can't be magical. As well as breeding stuff that can't breed together. There is absolutely nothing about reproductive gender switch screams more difficult than that.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
              Because you can completely make new species at ambition three ones that can breed true. All mundane species not limited to simply animals. They just can't be magical. As well as breeding stuff that can't breed together. There is absolutely nothing about reproductive gender switch screams more difficult than that.
              Compare cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, kale, Brussels sprouts, collard greens, savoy, kohlrabi, and gai lan, to their singular ancestor, from which we cultivated all of them many centuries ago. Virtually all the world's almonds were once lethally poisonous, and now they're so benign that we throw bits of them into candy!

              Yet we still aren't very good at providing a trans person the means to procreate in the manner aligning with their gender identity. Shit, we as a culture still aren't very good at providing a trans person the right to shit in the toilet aligning with their gender identity.
              Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-22-2019, 12:43 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                Compare cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli, kale, Brussels sprouts, collard greens, savoy, kohlrabi, and gai lan, to their singular ancestor, from which we cultivated all of them many centuries ago. Yet we still aren't very good at providing a trans person the means to procreate in the manner aligning with their gender identity. Shit, we as a culture still aren't very good at providing a trans person the right to shit in the toilet aligning with their gender identity.
                We don't have MAGIC. There is RAW no reason why it would even be remotely celestial workings.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm pretty sure the genderswap hearthstone did not make it to 3e and hearthstones are sufficiently different in 3e that I wouldn't assume any from previous editions necessarily still exist.

                  That said, I'd probably put a full on gender change Working at Terrestrial 3 and giving someone the ability to just switch their own gender whenever at Celestial 2. I could see arguments for going even lower in rating though. I mean, I could imagine a Supernatural merit that let you just change genders whenever (feels like it should be worth 2 or 3 dots based on my gut and the exact execution) and Terrestrial 2 is supposed to let you give people mutations, so....

                  Ultimately, this is something I think you might want to discuss with your ST. The Realm finds Sorcery sufficiently distasteful that, even if gender reassessment potions were easy enough to make that the Cynis could hand them out as party favors, I don't think the vast majority of people would take them up on it, so how easy it is for a Sorcerer to swap someone's gender shouldn't impact the setting too much, one way or another.

                  Plus, being Trans and being Gay are two different things. Not everyone is going to be comfortable with a "temporary" genderswap in order to have children or with the necessary ...mechanics involved, let alone the possibility of having to be the other gender potentially for years (sometimes conception is hard and presumably one of the two needs to be a woman for a year to bring the child to term). So, in those cases, a Neomah still might be the preferable option.


                  ....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                    That's absolute bullshit
                    You know, it would be all well and good to disagree with their ruling, but maybe do it with a bit of grace and civility. It isn't 2005 anymore.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      You know, it would be all well and good to disagree with their ruling, but maybe do it with a bit of grace and civility. It isn't 2005 anymore.
                      I just it's just a disservice to the game and options. Personally I think workings just do too much and should be limited to celestial and solar sorcery at terrestrial and celestial levels. But that's not the game rules as write. Maybe it's not completely civil but I'd rather be direct over than indirect. I'm not going to mince my words.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                        The devs have commented on this. A Terrestrial Working can be as complete as current medical science in reality. Changing utterly to “what my physical body would be if I had received different chromosomes” including a fully functional different reproductive system would be a Celestial Working. Not beyond Dragon Blooded, but difficult.
                        This does mean that dynasts that do such a working upon themselves may render themselves less able to bear children, which is definitely a concern as deebs are obsessed with having children. Personally, I think it ought to be in reach of terrestrial circle, since that can make entirely new forms of mundane life and minor supernatural abilities, which should definitely qualify.

                        If nothing else, letting it work for terrestrial tactfully avoids one big issue that the current methods of transitioning involve, which is partial or complete sterility, which is a big no-no for dynasts whom are expected to bear children. Else you place a deeb in a situation where they cannot transition without becoming a complete pariah.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post

                          This does mean that dynasts that do such a working upon themselves may render themselves less able to bear children, which is definitely a concern as deebs are obsessed with having children.
                          Hence the precedent of Rawar specifically lifting the normal prohibition on Sorcerous conception of children for transgender Dynasts (as that’s how the Empress and her husband Rawar [a trans man] conceived both Ragara and Mnemon - though the exact method used, be it Neomah, a Woeking where the Empress drank a potion with Rawar’s blood to be impregnated, or any other possibility, is not specified)
                          Last edited by glamourweaver; 03-22-2019, 03:50 AM.


                          Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                            Because you can completely make new species at ambition three ones that can breed true. All mundane species not limited to simply animals. They just can't be magical. As well as breeding stuff that can't breed together. There is absolutely nothing about reproductive gender switch screams more difficult than that.
                            Creating anew is somewhat easier than reconstructing; even magically.
                            Originally posted by ReshyShira View Post
                            This does mean that dynasts that do such a working upon themselves may render themselves less able to bear children, which is definitely a concern as deebs are obsessed with having children. Personally, I think it ought to be in reach of terrestrial circle, since that can make entirely new forms of mundane life and minor supernatural abilities, which should definitely qualify.

                            If nothing else, letting it work for terrestrial tactfully avoids one big issue that the current methods of transitioning involve, which is partial or complete sterility, which is a big no-no for dynasts whom are expected to bear children. Else you place a deeb in a situation where they cannot transition without becoming a complete pariah.
                            Celestial Circle Workings are within reach of a Terrestrial Sorcerer; they just require more effort and are a little riskier.

                            PS: Even if you opt for non-functional transition, there are still ways to reproduce.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                              We don't have MAGIC. There is RAW no reason why it would even be remotely celestial workings.
                              The rules as written are that Terrestrial workings are for what one thinks should be readily and routinely within the capabilities of Terrestrial and mortal sorcerers, and Celestial workings cover things that one thinks should only be possible to them with significant effort and dedication. The examples of each Ambition level aren't holy writ.

                              To the extent that they're worth extrapolating from, the creation of mundane life still kind of confines that circle to more mundane solutions, which limits what it can do with a pre-existing specimen. To me, the image of fully recreating a person's body from the roots up is a more dramatic and fantastical transformation.

                              But if going by the first line, it becomes a question of how dramatic does one want to make the subject of gender confirmation. There's an argument to the idea that it's affirmative to make it such a straightforward and casual thing as it can't be in real life, but I think there's also an argument that it kind of trivialises the issues faced by trans people, maybe even to the point of erasure. To say that, in the Scarlet Dynasty, the big Exalted community propagated through reproduction, nobody who is trans there has reason to not bear a resemblance to actual trans people... to me it kind of feels more cis affirmative. I think it's different to place that level of transformation within the realms of a higher, more rarefied magic.

                              I'll note that trans people are among the writers of What Fire Has Wrought, and while I couldn't say if they were the ones who specifically wrote about the placement of trans people in the Scarlet Dynasty, given what is apparent about the characters of Robert Vance and Eric Minton, I doubt the book would have come through in the manner that it did if any of those writers gave a feedback suggesting that it would be preferable for magic to just trivially confirm gender.

                              Ultimately, that's the element of it that matters more to me than whether or not the rules line up 100%.

                              Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                              I just it's just a disservice to the game and options.
                              How? The option still exists, it's just a bit harder. Not even harder in a way that puts it beyond the capabilities of a player, just harder in a manner that reflects a setting preference for easier option.

                              Originally posted by Epimetheus
                              But that's not the game rules as write.
                              The rules as write for sorcery are more ambiguous and determined by feel, as defined by the person who created the workings system, who is also the one that has stated the line between things akin to hormone therapy and wholesale recreation of a body.

                              Originally posted by Epimetheus
                              Maybe it's not completely civil but I'd rather be direct over than indirect. I'm not going to mince my words.
                              It's unfortunate, though not unexpected, that you can't see a way to be both direct and civil, and equate the latter with mincing words.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X