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Lunars - Fooling you to enlighten you

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  • Lunars - Fooling you to enlighten you

    I'm looking at two Lunar Manipulation Charms and remembering my usual problem with "does this magic care if you're telling a factual lie, or merely whether you think you are?"

    The mechanical text of Empress-Grifting Confidences and Grows-in-the-Telling Technique both specify that the Lunar must be lying, but I'm not sure that's a necessary or desirable distinction to try and make.

    After all, it's not enough to tell the truth, since people don't have to choose to believe you, especially when the truth is so hard to believe or accepting it would seem more inconvenient than embracing a lie. So any trick to persuade someone to believe you can be used to tell the truth as you see it as easily as it could be to do the total opposite.

    With Forsaking-the-Blood Posture, Tarnished Silver Imprecation, and Creating-the-Wolf Attitude, you could accuse someone of something they actually have done. "Accusation" is agnostic in regards to basis or truth or proof.

    Generosity of the Cuckoo could be used to give someone something they might initially think is deadly but which they later realize can save their life against an unforeseen situation that you had reason not to warn them about ahead of time.

    Likewise, you might force someone to see the real value of a thing with Trash-is-Treasure Misdirection.

    Glib Tongue Technique and Heart-Snaring Deception supplement Instill actions without caring what you're trying to make someone feel or believe, which you could believe wholeheartedly and be absolutely wrong about, or which you don't believe at all no matter how true it is.

    Lying to the World only cares that your influence was successful and based in Manipulation, not whether you actually meant to lie or said something factually untrue.

    Uncertain Sky Ambiguity is helpfully vague in "causes targets to doubt the truth of a specific fact". The mechanics of the Charm don't care whether the fact was ever actually true, merely that the targets believed it to be true and now don't. Someone could have lied to a man about who stole his horse, and a Lunar could use this Charm to redirect his ire against whoever the Lunar herself believes is the thief, regardless of whether the Lunar herself knows the truth of the matter.

    The Shadow Who Wasn't There really might not have been the Lunar, but she has reasonable cause to fear that some deed might be attributed to her by accident or someone else's design, and so she can ward herself against the possibility.

    Ever-Present Shadow Insinuation could likewise be used to take credit for a deed that might accidentally get attributed to someone else, or ward against the possibility of someone else trying to take credit and being believed.

    Your target for Wayward Pariah Affliction might actually be secretly a pariah in his society without knowing it.

    Maybe your targets for Wolves-in-the-Mist Incitement really were in imminent danger.

    Your target for Secret Devil's Presence might actually be exactly who you say they are.

    Coyote-Laughing Hilarity doesn't care whether the accusations against you are true or false.

    All of the above make it especially important that Grows-in-the-Telling Technique be allowed to work for attempts to tell the truth, so that if your first attempt to tell the truth didn't work, you could try again and this time hit them with any of the above Charms to be more convincing than the truth alone would be, for people who would rather live in a fantasy.

    Whispering Silver Serpent is one of the very few Manipulation Charms where deliberate intent to tell an untruth is necessary, since it absolutely wouldn't make sense otherwise.

    The following Cobra's Hypnotic Gaze could be used to convince someone of the truth, so I'm not entirely convinced it should follow Whispering Silver Serpent.

    Forgetful Victim Prana definitely should follow Whispering Silver Serpent since the FVP absolutely is about objective deception.

    Shadow Faith Inversion is like Cobra's Hypnotic Gaze; it's neutral towards truth or falsehood and benevolence or malevolence. Definitely belongs after Cobra's Hypnotic Gaze, but not so much after Whispering Silver Serpent.

    Whispering Silver Serpent makes sense as a prerequisite for Nameless Monster Embodiment, since the Charm might be used against a Principle she doesn't actually oppose, for the purpose of destroying the person. Likewise with Nation-Sundering Shadow.

    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

  • #2
    This is definitely a clever and fun way to use Manipulation, but allowing Grows-in-the-Telling Technique to be used with true statements just turns it into a Charm to reset any social influence, which I hardly think was the intent.

    If you really want to use the liar Charms to tell the truth, first convince yourself that you're not. Whispering Silver Serpent can help with that, as can Silver Mask Subversion.
    Last edited by The MG; 03-24-2019, 09:21 AM.


    • #3
      Originally posted by The MG View Post
      This is definitely a clever and fun way to use Manipulation, but allowing Grows-in-the-Telling Technique to be used with true statements just turns it into a Charm to reset any social influence, which I hardly think was the intent.
      No, it says it supplements Instill efforts. That clause can be left alone if the following clause about "lies" is removed or changed.

      It's not about "social influence which SAYS true things", it's about "social influence to change what people think is the truth".

      Grows-in-the-Telling Technique is about getting people to change their opinions on facts, which only Instill actions can do, and which cannot be done with Bargain, Persuade, Threaten, or Inspire actions.

      Grows-in-the-Telling Technique grows out of Glib Tongue Technique, which is also limited to Instill actions based on beliefs and not emotions. Charismatic Lunar Trick is its cousin, which supplements Instill (and Inspire) actions to create emotions rather than beliefs.

      So Glib Tongue Technique and Grows-in-the-Telling Technique couldn't even be used for ALL forms of Instill actions, either. Effectively, they can only create or modify Principles, not Ties.
      Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 03-24-2019, 09:44 AM.

      Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

      My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!


      • #4
        Hard at work as always. I don't know it seems as if you're more enthusiastic or positive at least in these posts so far. It's making me appreciate your way of doing things. Of course I know you're trying to get something in the official prints but if you don't mind me saying make sure you collect this stuff so that that way you can make your own public supplementary house rules.

        I've recently gotten into jumpchain through spacebattles. Over there a poster that I tend to follow cliff c999 as well as a few others have made some variant rules for the Baseline of the admittedly web-based far from formalized Game of writing about your choose your own adventures with a plot of you jumping to a new world every 10 years taking‚Äčalong certain items and special abilities called Perks. However there are certain rules of the game that he felt were worth modifying and people often commonly integrate his rules or interpretations versus the original jumpchain creator.

        I suppose when I'm getting that is it may be necessary for a very Baseline game to not include your vision. It may be very important that they direct the players towards this sense of deception. Or they may not see the world or certain interactions as you do or it may not integrate well with the overall theme of the work. But you can still publish your pretty well-thought-out house rules and your reasoning behind them like the op. It may not be official but it could be very helpful for other people who might be interested in lunars and how to reinterpret or play with the charms.

        The reasoning that you give with all of your interpretations and your ideas behind them feel incredibly inventive. It makes me want to play a lunar well okay no I have to admit I'm a total sucker for solars. But that's not because this is not awesome it makes me go g I want to see this character played out and see what kind of shenanigans it could start

        as much as I and many like me be moans the original publishing of Siderealls one of the things that was very good at doing was making sure that if you played with their tools you thought acted and understood how to act like the starl exalted and their archetypes were supposed to.
        Butler's doesn't force or at least you're trying to avoid a certain level of force it does encourage and grants comprehension to Howell uner could act or at least the type of creature you want lunars to be. And I really like for you to be able to collect and share that and I will be happy to do so on my own
        Last edited by Darmani; 05-29-2019, 03:44 PM.