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How would an oWoD mage see Exalted Reality/Ruling Paradigm?

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  • How would an oWoD mage see Exalted Reality/Ruling Paradigm?

    This is not vs thread or something I have a legitimate question on how do you think mage would perceive reality within Exalted. I have a short list of a few questions.

    -For one, I think that there is no gauntlet in Exalted so everywhere counts as Shallowing and probably at least a level 1 mystic Node.
    -For another, any WoD gains automatic success at any task per spent WP, would it stay same in Exalted where reality is much more pliable?
    -Also, fundamental nature of spirits is assumed to be unchangeable in Exalt, while Mage can reshape any spirit with enough successes. Though it would probably be vulgar now.
    -The mage would also face less resistance on casting (sphere +2/+3?) and even less paradox due to weaker reality, most probably manifesting as tears into Wyld.
    -Do you think immunity to Shaping Attacks would outright block magic or just make it automatically Vulgar? On one hand it is considered fundamentally impossible to overcome, on another mages do exactly that in their home universe with every spell and against much sturdier reality.
    -For another, what would Avatar seem closer to for locals? A god? Elemental? Or (as I see) one of the Raksha?
    -Do you think exalt Essence is ruled by Spirit, Spirit+Prime or just plain Prime?
    -How do you think new rules with mental influence would interact with social charms (+3 diff, high probability of detecting)?
    -Do you think Entropy (breaking oaths) and Spirit (namebreaking) would cacel/hijack Oaths and Geasa of Fair Folk and Yozi? How about Unboundable merit?
    -Would mortals in Exalted be seen as humans, victors or spirits by WoD mages?
    -Is Aggreviated in Exalted and Aggreviated in WoD one and the same thing?
    -Would mages that use foci of Celestial Decrees be considered coincidental in Exalted (Wu Lung, Celestial Chorus)? Maybe they would be seen as forgeries?

    *before you mention, I'm also posting this on Mage thread. I'm interested in both points of view.

  • #2
    Are you asking about MtA characters dropped into Creation, or what kind of Paradigms would mortals in Creation who suddenly Awakened develop?


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    • #3
      Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
      Are you asking about MtA characters dropped into Creation, or what kind of Paradigms would mortals in Creation who suddenly Awakened develop?

      lets say 2 mages from oWoD, each fully educated in mystic and technocratic paradigms correspondingly can experiment in Creation for their hearts content to test out local paradigm.

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      • #4
        I think mages would be pretty safe regardless of paradigm. People can do weird shit in Creation. Throw fireballs? Yeah, people do that. Some of them run the place.

        Exalts kind of use a weird combo of Celestial Chorus for the main chunk of their power (except they actually carry a chunk of their gods around with them) with some Akashic Brotherhood stuff slipping in with Martial arts and I suppose Order of Hermes with sorcery?

        And of course mortals with access to sorcery will feel more solidly OOH. Godblooded are kind of CC again, I suppose.

        And of course, Alchies, should they be encountered, are fairly technocratic.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Warpwind
          double posting.... how do I remove this?
          I closed the other thread since this one took off. I'd also help with your enquiry but I saw Mage terminology and my eyes glazed over, so I'll leave you in the hands of those better qualified.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Elfive View Post
            I think mages would be pretty safe regardless of paradigm. People can do weird shit in Creation. Throw fireballs? Yeah, people do that. Some of them run the place.

            Exalts kind of use a weird combo of Celestial Chorus for the main chunk of their power (except they actually carry a chunk of their gods around with them) with some Akashic Brotherhood stuff slipping in with Martial arts and I suppose Order of Hermes with sorcery?

            And of course mortals with access to sorcery will feel more solidly OOH. Godblooded are kind of CC again, I suppose.

            And of course, Alchies, should they be encountered, are fairly technocratic.

            ah, but there are certain weird things, like spirits/gods having static natures and oaths being inviolate. I think violating those would be vulgar even if not so in WoD itself. For an example, turning fire elemental into wood one is impossible in Exalted as far as I know. Though I agree that Reality in Creation is much weaker, by WoD standards it's more of a Horizon Realm then an universe proper.

            The question I had there, would mage for example be able to learn at least Terrestrial Martial Arts? after all they are common for local supernaturals.

            I don't get what you are saying here.

            Would fit right in for Etherites.
            Last edited by Warpwind; 04-11-2019, 08:13 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Warpwind View Post


              I don't get what you are saying here.
              It's possible for non-exalts in creation to learn sorcery. So this wouldn't fit in with the exalt's god-based paradigm, but it matches up with something else they can do.

              Sorry, I'm not hugely familiar with OWoD Mage. Read M20 a couple of times. I'm just trying to map what I can recall onto exalted.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                It's possible for non-exalts in creation to learn sorcery. So this wouldn't fit in with the exalt's god-based paradigm, but it matches up with something else they can do.
                Oh, you mean OoH copying Sorcery? Yeah, emulating it's effects with Spheres would be completely coincidental. However, mages can also learn whatever is considered within current paradigm outright (gen mods, charms, etc.). Furthermore, using local belifes actually provides WoD magics with bonuses. So, if WoD mage used Sorcery appropriate trappings he would receive bonus dice (from medieval mage).

                What I'm more interested though, would they be able to learn Martial Arts? and would successes translate into same effects in different worlds? martial arts carry completely different meaning in WoD and Creation. Or would it function like martial arts foci with bonuses for using local foci. Use M20 rules if you want, np.

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                • #9
                  I think, if you were to learn a martial art, you might be able to use spheres to mimic the effects of the charms, or something that could plausibly be a charm, and that would be coincidental.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    I think, if you were to learn a martial art, you might be able to use spheres to mimic the effects of the charms, or something that could plausibly be a charm, and that would be coincidental.
                    yeah, that sounds reasonable. I would even add a couple dice for using especially appropriate foci. Thanks.

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                    • #11
                      I'm confused at the notion you suggest that spirits are static and unchanging, as Ahlat was once the god of bull walrus mating dances; he certainly didn't look like a Minotaur then.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                        I'm confused at the notion you suggest that spirits are static and unchanging, as Ahlat was once the god of bull walrus mating dances; he certainly didn't look like a Minotaur then.
                        Donno. That's what I read in Exalted (can't remember the edition).
                        For an example, can you take a demon from malfeas and turn it into an elemental with charms? Or for example take a god and merge it with elemental, or make it capable of feeding on blood without falling to underworld?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Warpwind View Post
                          Donno. That's what I read in Exalted (can't remember the edition).
                          For an example, can you take a demon from malfeas and turn it into an elemental with charms? Or for example take a god and merge it with elemental, or make it capable of feeding on blood without falling to underworld?
                          Yes.

                          But it takes effort. Lots of effort.

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                          • #14
                            So thoughts. Now I know Exalted a lot better than I know Mage. But I am at least passingly familiar with Mage.

                            First I imagine with high enough Spirit you could at the very least futz about with the Underworld while in Creation and that should probably have some level of Gauntlet unless you are in a Shadowland. But yeah for interacting with Spirits in Creation there would be little if any Gauntlet. I think you could also use Spirit to travel to Yu-Shan or Malfeas without going through traditional means and that would have a Gauntlet rating. There would probably be some incentive (Carrot or Stick) with Malfeas for accepting the five day rule when it comes to travel in or out of the realm.

                            Resurrection and Time Travel would both be incredibly vulgar regardless of paradigm.

                            I think Charms like Destiny-Manifesting Method would maintain their primacy. So you can do your magic on the Invincible Sword Princess, but even if you turn her into a rock it won't stop her from being the Invincible Sword Princess and that rock could still wreck you. As for the more full stop defenses from previous editon (or Moonsilver tattoos) that I'm less certain of. My gut says they would work against most magic, but that doesn't seem very fun. Of course neither does having no way to defend against the mage. I do however think comparing this to the sturdiness of reality is thinking about it the wrong way. It's not the sturdiness of reality your up against here, it's the spiritual fortitude of the Exalt.

                            Random locals would definitely consider the Avatar to be a God. It is THE default assumption when seeing an obviously Supernatural creature that you don't know wha it is. Now when Joe Farmer goes to get an Immaculate Monk or other person who knows what they are talking about it's a different matter. Here I don't feel comfortable giving a definitive answer as my knowledge of Mage avatars is limited. However they do seem more similar to Spirit's of some variety than Fae to me.

                            I feel like essence would just be Prime. It feels onehundred percent like something Prime should cover. Now if you are futzing around with another person's Essence that would likely require mixing in Life or Spirit depending on the target.

                            Not sure what you mean about Mental Influence.

                            Breaking the Yozi Oaths I feel would be incredibly difficult, incredibly Vulgar, require both Spirit and Entropy, and just be an overall bad idea even if you succeeded. As for Fae that seems like it would be a lot easier and maybe not even Vulgar depending on how you do it. But I think it would require some Prime or Life mixed in as well as you are fundamentally changing the nature of a living being (that would not fall under Spirit in my opinion).

                            I do not think Mages would see mortals as spirits. The fact that they don't need the Spirit sphere to mess with them would quickly disabuse them of that notion. Beyond that I don't know how Mages would view Exalted's mortals.

                            Yeah, Agg is Agg.

                            And finally as others have said most traditions would have a very easy time being Coincidental in Creation.



                            Originally posted by Warpwind View Post
                            Donno. That's what I read in Exalted (can't remember the edition).
                            For an example, can you take a demon from malfeas and turn it into an elemental with charms? Or for example take a god and merge it with elemental, or make it capable of feeding on blood without falling to underworld?
                            With Charms no, not as far as I know. But this is definitely a possibility in Exalted via Sorcerous Workings or other means if incredibly difficult. And Demons of the Second or Third Circles in particular have their own complications, both for Exalted and Mages, as they are in addition to being individuals part of a larger singular entity.

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                            • #15
                              Right, so it would be fairly simple to change one spirit into another spirit of the same type, but a lot harder to change a spirit into a different sort of spirit.

                              A god can change, but it's still a god.

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