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  • Artifact that enhances sorcery?

    I have a player that wants to make an artifact that enhances sorcerous workings. He wants the base power before evocations to lower the time it takes for the duration per roll.

    So, given this, say the artifact lowers the base time from one week to 3 days. What level would that be? I'm thinking 4 or 5. Further thoughts on evocations to enhance sorcery are welcome. I'm not sure where to start.

    Edit: Given new info:

    I think having the artifact reduce the time needed for a terrestrial level working first as the base effect is the right way to go. Then the evocations to reduce the time needed for celestial & solar workings require the PC to learn those levels of sorcery as a prerequisite.

    The question still remains though, what level of artifact should this be?
    Last edited by Tytalus; 04-14-2019, 11:14 PM.

  • #2
    I think that the base time for Sorcery should not be adjusted. It would be better instead to have an artifact that reduced the difficult of workings or an artifact that gave bonus dice when doing a working. I would suggest that an artifact that reduce the difficulty by one would be level 3, two would be level 4, and four would be level 5. Since the difficulty would be reduced, the overall time would be reduced.

    As for Evocations, they would probably relate to giving bonus dice or bonus means to the creation of sorcerous workings. More advanced Evocations might even allow sorcerers to expend crafting experience instead of normal experience for sorcerous workings or may allow sorcerers to function at a higher initiation level for the purpose of creating sorcerous workings. The capstone Evocation may allow a sorcerer to create temporary sorcerous workings, which would last for one scene, by spending a turn per roll and by spending motes of Essence and Willpower.

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    • #3
      An artifact that enhances sorerous workings would definitely be N/A. That's speeding up fundamentally enhancing the universe.

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      • #4

        I would think Raski's book would count as this no?

        EDIT: Ah probably not, didn't read what you said in specifics
        Last edited by Iceblade44; 04-14-2019, 08:04 PM.


        .

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        • #5
          There are Artifacts in the setting that do this stuff. The Book of Three Circles, the Emerald Thurible, etc. I don't know of one that isn't N/A. I'd consider going with a Hearthstone or even a Manse for this kind of ability, but that's just details.

          Thematically, I think most Sorcery enhancement should come with some kind of cost. Not necessarily a Monkey's Paw "Oh no, my Hubris" thing, but some kind of drawback or investment. Both the Thurible and the Book have these, though more in terms of NPC drawbacks than PCs (The Thurible can summon 2nd circle demons but doesn't guarantee Mnemon can bind them, and the Book has fed Raksi's obsession over centuries)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
            fundamentally enhancing the universe.
            What happened to it being just breeding new mundane life forms?


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            • #7
              Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
              There are Artifacts in the setting that do this stuff. The Book of Three Circles, the Emerald Thurible, etc. I don't know of one that isn't N/A.
              Where are you getting that about either of them?

              The Emerald Thurible in particular. That thing was always about summoning demons. Come What Fire Has Wrought, you've got an Artifact that grants the spell to summon Second Circles, can make it cheaper for demons to materialize, and doubles 9s for some rolls related to demons.

              What about that says N/A?


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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              • #8
                The difficulty here is that nothing currently printed in 3e lets you reduce the time needed to perform a Working, nor is there anything that breaks the dice cap for Workings so there’s currently no reference to use to figure out how to balance such an effect.

                That said, I would say the main things to keep in mind is that Solar level workings should remain epic feats that take lots of time to perform and that you never let minor workings become so easy that they become the first solution to every problem. Make sure you enforce the xp costs of Workings.

                If I was going to do something like that, I'd create an Evocation that had Celestial Circle Sorcery as a prereq and allow you to reduce the Means available to your Terrestrial Workings at a rate of one Means per 2 days, minimum one day. So, if you spend one means, you get to roll after 5 days instead of 7 and spending 3 means would turn your interval into a day.


                ....

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                • #9
                  Also, there are a couple of artifacts in Arms of the chosen that mess with Sorcery, neither of them are N/A


                  ....

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                    What happened to it being just breeding new mundane life forms?
                    I mean it's not just that. The power of it at baseline isn't remotely the same as it is at celestial or solar workings.

                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    Where are you getting that about either of them?

                    The Emerald Thurible in particular. That thing was always about summoning demons. Come What Fire Has Wrought, you've got an Artifact that grants the spell to summon Second Circles, can make it cheaper for demons to materialize, and doubles 9s for some rolls related to demons.

                    What about that says N/A?
                    The fact that it lets you summon demons higher than your ability. Last I checked if a lunar or sidereal had that they could summon third circle demons. The book of three circles has also always been N/A because it's a powerful artifact.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BrilliantRain View Post
                      The difficulty here is that nothing currently printed in 3e lets you reduce the time needed to perform a Working, nor is there anything that breaks the dice cap for Workings so there’s currently no reference to use to figure out how to balance such an effect.

                      That said, I would say the main things to keep in mind is that Solar level workings should remain epic feats that take lots of time to perform and that you never let minor workings become so easy that they become the first solution to every problem. Make sure you enforce the xp costs of Workings.

                      If I was going to do something like that, I'd create an Evocation that had Celestial Circle Sorcery as a prereq and allow you to reduce the Means available to your Terrestrial Workings at a rate of one Means per 2 days, minimum one day. So, if you spend one means, you get to roll after 5 days instead of 7 and spending 3 means would turn your interval into a day.

                      This gives me something to work with, thank you!

                      I think having the artifact reduce the time needed for a terrestrial level working first as the base effect is the right way to go. Then the evocations to reduce the time needed for celestial & solar workings require the PC to learn those levels of sorcery as a prerequisite.

                      The question still remains though, what level of artifact should this be?
                      Last edited by Tytalus; 04-14-2019, 11:13 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                        I mean it's not just that. The power of it at baseline isn't remotely the same as it is at celestial or solar workings.
                        What in either of those is enhancing the universe?

                        Originally posted by Epimetheus
                        The fact that it lets you summon demons higher than your ability. Last I checked if a lunar or sidereal had that they could summon third circle demons. The book of three circles has also always been N/A because it's a powerful artifact.
                        I'll grant that in the milieu of First and Second Edition, the power of the Emerald Thurible might qualify for N/A insofar as it's significantly higher than what we got from Artifact 5, which spoke to how absolutely goddamn pitiful Artifact 5 was in those Editions.

                        I mean, very few Artifacts were anything to write home about, but 5 was the one in particular that had a real dissonance between how it was described in rules and fiction and what the published examples could do.

                        And so, any time you had an Artifact that was halfway interesting, it had to be set to N/A, because it didn't really fit at 5 when the baseline was the freaking Daiklave of Conquest.

                        But now we have an Edition in which Artifact 5 is worth a damn, and the powers of the Emerald Thurible and Book of Three Circles to be found in the write-ups of Mnemon and Raksi respectively are no higher than it. They certainly don't reach the levels that Arms of the Chosen infers.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          What in either of those is enhancing the universe?



                          I'll grant that in the milieu of First and Second Edition, the power of the Emerald Thurible might qualify for N/A insofar as it's significantly higher than what we got from Artifact 5, which spoke to how absolutely goddamn pitiful Artifact 5 was in those Editions.

                          I mean, very few Artifacts were anything to write home about, but 5 was the one in particular that had a real dissonance between how it was described in rules and fiction and what the published examples could do.

                          And so, any time you had an Artifact that was halfway interesting, it had to be set to N/A, because it didn't really fit at 5 when the baseline was the freaking Daiklave of Conquest.

                          But now we have an Edition in which Artifact 5 is worth a damn, and the powers of the Emerald Thurible and Book of Three Circles to be found in the write-ups of Mnemon and Raksi respectively are no higher than it. They certainly don't reach the levels that Arms of the Chosen infers.
                          Solar workings can fundimentally alter creation. This isn't trival. Also, i don't think you realize how much a third circle demon is much much more powerful than any artifact in currently stated. 3rd circle demons are much more capable of moving and shaking to world compared to any artifact currently in the game.


                          Both artifacts let them utilize spells beyond them. A dragon blooded outside of that one artifact and another n/a artifact cannot summon a 2nd circle demon. Raksi with the book can cast spells she doesn't know as well as capture them for later use. These are world shaking artifacts.
                          Last edited by Epimetheus; 04-14-2019, 10:48 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                            Solar workings can fundimentally alter creation. This isn't trival.
                            It's not trivial, but it's also at the very top of the scale, so measuring what can be done to workings as a whole by that isn't really sensible.

                            Also, it's kind of trivial. Universal metaphysical alterations are said to be "subtle". Things the likes of which most people will tangibly experience can't be bigger than a city.

                            Originally posted by Epimetheus
                            Also, i don't think you realize how much a third circle demon is much much more powerful than any artifact in currently stated. 3rd circle demons are much more capable of moving and shaking to world compared to any artifact currently in the game.
                            I don't realize it because this Edition has not yet published a Third Circle Demon to measure its powers against Artifacts.

                            Also, this doesn't really feel true to Third Circle Demons that have existed in the game thus far.

                            Originally posted by Epimetheus
                            Both artifacts let them utilize spells beyond them. A dragon blooded outside of that one artifact cannot summon a 2nd circle demon. Raksi with the book can cast spells she doesn't know as well as capture them for later use. These are world shaking artifacts.
                            Artifact 5 is pretty world shaking. We've also got a level 5 soulsteel axe from which people can learn spells.

                            Being able to perform magic that you couldn't do without them seems rather the point of Artifacts. A Solar with Gnomon can fuck around with time and grow peaches of immortality in less than 500 years, and it is not N/A.

                            Honestly, the Emerald Thurible might be closer to Artifact 4 right now.

                            I'm reminded of Irenio's Bell, a Thunderbolt Shield that can summon First Circle Demons, just as an example of an Artifact intrinsically having demon-summoning power. The Emerald Thurible seems rather different with how its whole deal is summoning demons, so it leans more into that subject.


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                            • #15
                              What dice caps exist with Sorcery? Exalted should be able to use their Excellencies with Sorcery without any trouble, correct?

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