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[EX 2.5] Understanding Epic Zeal of (Virtues)

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  • Uknown DarkLord
    started a topic [EX 2.5] Understanding Epic Zeal of (Virtues)

    [EX 2.5] Understanding Epic Zeal of (Virtues)

    Hey there,

    For a 2.5 campaign I'm going to be running, one my players has decided that they want their character to have their virtues all at 5, and are taking Epic Zeal for each of the virtues.

    So I'm trying to wrap my head around how the character and the charms would work.

    Compassion is essentially, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Sacrificing the pawn to save the many. It's Teravangian from Stormlight, making a deal with Odium to sacrifice much of humanity to save some sliver of it. And have to spend willpower to help the individual if it does not serve the greater good. Well, the text says oppose the greater good. So does that mean the character can help an individual if there are no pressing needs for the greater good? Or because it would not serve the greater good then it is in opposition to it?

    For Conviction, if any mental influence tries to lessen or alter intimacies, alter beliefs or memories, then it seems they have a perfect mdv dodge if they want to use it. Which makes this interesting for an social exchanges. If Conviction is their primary virtue... man that is a lot of limit accrual. And to act contrary to an intimacy, they need to spend willpower.

    Temperence: If mental influence would build an intimacy or exert an emotion, they have a similar perfect dodge. And to act dishonest in any way, to show bias they have to spend willpower. They also have to spend willpower to break promises.

    Valor: Auto succeed on valor rolls, all mental influence that instills fear is an unacceptable order.

    So... it's almost as if the character is static. Unchanging. Does this mean that the character in the course of normal conversation would need to suppress conviction to allow their mind to be changed? To see a better way to enact a plan?

    And if two virtues come into conflict, they will need to suppress one of them, right? For example, if an army is coming to attack to a town and a retreat would be better for the greater good, but due to Valor they they want to charge. They would either have to suppress compassion or valor. Right?

    Do I have the reading for this charm and its applicability correctly?

  • Astralporing
    replied
    Originally posted by Uknown DarkLord View Post
    Does Epic Zeal of Compassion mean that the character who has it cannot channel compassion to help an individual? They can only channel compassion when they are serving the greater good?
    No. They can channel compassion in any situation where they normally could... as long as it doesn't conflict with their understanding of the greater good.

    Notice, that it's not about some objective greater good, but greater good as the Solar sees it. It may be about saving/helping the many at the cost to the few, but it doesn't have to be a direct number comparison... or, depending on the nature of the greater good, it can be about saving the few worth saving at the cost to the many that are unworthy. You can really twist the virtues in pretzels with this charm, as long as the end result is internally consistent, and follows your intimacies.

    In this specific case, the oath itself has nothing to do with Epic Zeal of Compassion (it would be more of a Conviction thing). If the Solar decides, that sparing that individual will fulfill greater good, then the individual gets spared (first, second, nth time... as many times as necessary for the greater good). If sparing him would hinder the greater good, then off with the head, and oath be damned. Exceptions from the rules done for the sake of greater good are to be expected. Unless, of course, the rules themselves, for some reason, are the greater good Solar believes in.

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  • Uknown DarkLord
    replied
    Originally posted by Uknown DarkLord View Post
    Does Epic Zeal of Compassion mean that the character who has it cannot channel compassion to help an individual? They can only channel compassion when they are serving the greater good?
    Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
    Essentially, yes.
    Coming back to Epic Zeal/Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion; the player who wants this has this idea where they have an oath that they have have to provide clemency for anyone that seeks it. One time. So a murderer fleeing law enforcement could plead clemency from the character to receive protection from law enforcement. And the character, by virtue of the oath made, would have to accept it. However if the murderer murders again, then he loses that protection.

    The player views it as a sort of human works project/rehabilitation. That the good of the many is served by providing all parts of the whole forgiveness and a chance at redemption/rehabilitation. But that seems to me to be a way to avoid how Cosmic Transcendence changes how compassion is held and getting around the charm restrictions. Cause it seems to me to grant forgiveness or clemency to and individual that they would have to spend a willpower to suppress compassion. Since it is specifically forgiving an individual. But then, maybe he views himself as a mechanic and granting clemency is seeing if he can get a cog in working order. Doesn't matter the circumstances, but if that clean up attempt doesn't work then he tosses it out.

    Would that be a better reading?

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Ah, ok. That makes more sense.

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  • Uknown DarkLord
    replied
    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
    Is Zeal even in 2.5? I thought it got errata'd out.

    This is the Solar Mirror of the Infernal charms Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue). Not the Zeal charm from Lords of Creation.

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  • Elfive
    replied
    Is Zeal even in 2.5? I thought it got errata'd out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Epimetheus
    replied
    Originally posted by Uknown DarkLord View Post
    Does Epic Zeal of Compassion mean that the character who has it cannot channel compassion to help an individual? They can only channel compassion when they are serving the greater good?
    Essentially, yes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Uknown DarkLord
    replied
    Does Epic Zeal of Compassion mean that the character who has it cannot channel compassion to help an individual? They can only channel compassion when they are serving the greater good?

    Leave a comment:


  • Keldorn2198
    replied
    As I understand it, pretty much yes. Keep in mind that Epic Zeal of (Virtue) makes a character act in ways that most would consider inhuman, and certainly inhumane. The player may not fully realize just how limited his behavior will be he goes forward with this character build. Putting all 4 Epic Zeal of (Virtue) charms on 1 character could easily make the game a nightmare for the storyteller and the players alike. Imagine how bad things could get once he is out of Willpower! As a storyteller, this is one character build to which I would give a hard NO.

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