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  • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    Generally, I'd agree. But I was trying to save motes.
    I get that. But then again, Carter's also got two different Charms that help him recover motes from social encounters (Preeminent Gala Knife and Undying Solar Resolve), so I'm a little biased.

    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    Does HPM help Read Intentions? I erred on the side of "no", but... IDK.
    I believe the devs said "no" as well, but I can't be arsed to look that up right now.


    He/him

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    • Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

      Elegant Weapon Repertoire. 3m: Add Accuracy to Damage.
      Dang, I missed that. For only 3m? I issue a retraction, there's not really that many enemies that Sugar can't fight and reasonably hope to beat. Although some of them might rely on a Storyteller who's a bit biased in stunting.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        there's not really that many enemies that Sugar can't fight and reasonably hope to beat. Although some of them might rely on a Storyteller who's a bit biased in stunting.
        The stunting rules do say to be biased in favor of the PCs. That doesn't mean "never stunt", but I try not to kill my PCs, and Guybrush needed the help.

        Also the NPCs never opened with Decisives (except the 9i one I knew Guybrush could get Hardness 10 against). Rarely spent Willpower.

        If I wanted to kill Guybrush, I could have had Moray Darktide show up in a First Age ship and blow him out of the water. I didn't want to kill him. I wanted to tell a story and I wanted him to look epic.

        That's how I run my games.

        But no character is going to survive an ST that really wants them dead.

        Also, whilst the Melee build is two dots more expensive, it's a lot closer to what I expect from a starting Solar (though 13/5m is pretty limiting -- are we sure the sailor needs heavy armor, and it'd be nice to have an Ox-Body in case the ship gets damaged). Maybe add in Fire and Stones Strike, Athletics and Awareness 3 and two Ox-bodies if the character wants to be "good" at combat. Sugar Daddy Captain is firmly a "non-combat" build in my book: but that's ok. The Dawn can fight the Dynast Captain. The 5 combat charm Zenith can fight the Dynast's bound Blood Ape. Sugar Daddy can fight the mortal First Mate. The Dawn can fight two Fog Sharks, the Zenith and SDC can fight one each.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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        • I'd normally say a sailor might not want heavy armor, that's a -2 mobility penalty to any swimming you might want to do.

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          • So my pet love in 3e is actually Supernal Martial Arts that focuses on the social styles, because it results in a pretty diverse and toolboxy character that can approach combat different ways and focus on outcomes that aren't murder the other guy.

            That said, how social styles impact not combat primary characters is probably relevant, too--debatably more relevant.

            I feel like as far as main combat tactics go, SVN, especially up to Heart Reading Melody, is probably the way to go for offense. Black Claw has some of the best defense in the game (especially when supplemented by Solar Dodge/Resistance).
            Last edited by SoulGambit; 03-03-2020, 02:52 AM.

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            • Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
              So my pet love in 3e is actually Supernal Martial Arts that focuses on the social styles, because it results in a pretty diverse and toolboxy character that can approach combat different ways and focus on outcomes that aren't murder the other guy.

              That said, how social styles impact not combat primary characters is probably relevant, too--debatably more relevant.
              That might be difficult to run for, just because the social aspect is so contextual. Somebody may be hopelessly susceptible to Black Claw just because of their intimacies, while another may be extremely resilient to them.

              There may be a satrap who found ancient and terribly heretical texts that spoke of the golden first age of the Solar Exalted, which grew into an obsession to the point where she has a defining principle that the Solars are the rightful rulers of Creation, or her parents and brother may have died at the Battle of Futile Blood and she’s sworn vendetta against all Solar anathema. Or maybe your Silver Voiced Nightingale is just trying to get her to host the damn ball already like she SAID SHE WOULD A YEAR AGO! Obviously needing to kung-fu fight her for that. Which is awesome, awesome awesome, but I have no baseline for the intimacies that either character has in that regard, and I worry that giving them would just be me fiat granting a victory or defeat. Either they have the intimacies to exploit or they don’t, and how much groundwork did the socialite do beforehand to discover them or grow them?

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              • JohnDoe244, by running an entire mini-session for one solar all by himself, inspired me to do the same thing for a party of 3 Solars. Now, you might say that is overly complicated and you would certainly be right. Anyways I thought it might be fun to post some of the naval battles I did on this thread, as I don't think that combat system has been discussed much.

                My first battle was an attempt to see if ships captained by mortals can be an appropriate threat to ships captained by the Exalted, with an appropriate choice of scenario. In this case, the Solars come across an innocent merchant ship being menaced by 2 corsairs.

                Our intrepid heroes:

                The ship is the Bay Max, a Blue Water Merchant. Its captain, Rose's Thorn, has the following relevant stats:
                Wits 5
                Sail 5 (the Bay Max)


                Charms:
                • Sail: Immortal Mariner’s Advantage
                • Sail: Legendary Captain’s Signature
                • Sail: Sea Ambush Technique
                • Sail: Deck-Sweeping Fusillade
                • Sail: Ship Breaker Method
                • Sail: Superior Positioning Technique
                She's quite good at sailing. She starts with 13 personal motes and 23 peripheral motes.



                The other ships are as follows

                The corsairs sail modified large yachts, with catapaults and a ramming prow. The corsair captains are experienced sailors, with 9 die sailing pools (I used the stat block of an Elite Troop and borrowed their Senses pool).

                The merchants also sail a large yacht. It is so harmless that it does not ever contribute to a -2 penalty for having multiple ships oppose. The captain is skilled, but unprepared for combat with a 4 die pool.



                The fight (in which I forgot to give anyone stunt dice, and also found and corrected several math errors when I went to post it, so there's probably more errors hiding in there).

                Round 1: Everyone has 0 momentum and take a positioning stratagem. Bay Max opposes Corsair 1, Corsair 1 and Corsair 2 oppose Merchants, Merchants oppose Corsair 2. Rose’s Thorn uses a four-mote excellency and Superior Positioning Technique. (11/19 motes).

                Bay Max rolls 15 dice, gaining 4 successes, spending 1 mote (11/18) to reroll two 1s with Immortal Mariner’s advantage, giving an additional success
                Corsair 1 rolls 8 dice, gaining 3 successes, with no 1s
                Corsair 2 rolls 8 dice, gaining 2 successes
                Merchants roll 1 die, gaining 1 success


                Momentum:
                Bay Max - 2
                Corsair 1 - 2
                Corsair 2 - 1
                Merchant - 0

                Round 2: Everyone takes the same strategy (9/15 motes).

                Bay Max rolls 15 dice, gaining 8 successes, spending 1 mote to double 9s, gaining an additional success, and 1 mote to reroll three 1s, gaining four additional successes, both with Immortal Mariner’s Advantage. (9/13 motes)
                Corsair 1 rolls 8 dice, gaining 0 successes, with one 1, giving Bay Max 2 additional successes, for a total of 15.
                Corsair 2 rolls 8 dice, gaining 10 successes.
                Merchant rolls 1 die, gaining 1 success.

                Momentum:
                Bay Max - 17
                Corsair 1 - 2
                Corsair 2 - 10
                Merchant - 0

                Unfortunately the Bay Max can do nothing to stop Corsair 2 from boarding the merchant ship. However, they will at least board Corsair 1.

                Bay Max chooses Drowning Tide, opposing Corsair 1, spending 2 motes (9/11). Corsair 1 chooses Positioning, opposing Corsair 2. Corsair 2 chooses Seize the Initiative!, opposing Merchant.

                Bay Max rolls 13 dice, gaining 7 successes, spending 1m to double 9s with Immortal Mariner’s Advantage, gaining 2 additional successes (9/10).
                Corsair 1 rolls 8 dice, gaining 3 successes.
                Corsair 2 rolls 8 dice, gaining 3 successes.
                Merchant rolls 3 dice, gaining 2 successes.

                Momentum:
                Bay Max - 2
                Corsair 1 - 2
                Corsair 2 - 0
                Merchant - 0

                Bay Max boards Corsair 1, and Corsair 2 boards Merchant.


                Well those were some weird rolls, but it probably demonstrates that even a Solar sailor needs to spend quite a few motes if she wants to be sure that she gets to her enemies before they get to the poor innocent civilians.

                What likely happens next is that, especially with the crazy bonuses, the Solars make quick work of their mortal foes on Corsair 1, which leads to the crew of Corsair 2 attempting to essentially take the merchants hostage to plead for their life.

                However the Sail rolls aren't great for this kind of situation. For instance if the Corsairs were to get scared of the Bay Max and try to escape, it would not make sense for them to shift to opposing the Bay Max, but rather keep opposing the merchant ship to take advantage of its low dice pool.

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                • Originally posted by habitableexoplanet View Post
                  However the Sail rolls aren't great for this kind of situation. For instance if the Corsairs were to get scared of the Bay Max and try to escape, it would not make sense for them to shift to opposing the Bay Max, but rather keep opposing the merchant ship to take advantage of its low dice pool.
                  Yeah that part does seem to be a bit of an oversight. I know that some parts of the sail rules were patched last minute, like when people pointed out that facing off at 1 to 10 odds if you were just a much better captain, like a Solar PC, you basically didn't care, so they added the multiple ship penalty which gives you a -18 die penalty in that situation.

                  This also has me curious does naval combat count for per-turn mote regeneration?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

                    Yeah that part does seem to be a bit of an oversight. I know that some parts of the sail rules were patched last minute, like when people pointed out that facing off at 1 to 10 odds if you were just a much better captain, like a Solar PC, you basically didn't care, so they added the multiple ship penalty which gives you a -18 die penalty in that situation.
                    One way to rule it might be that, in a multi-ship vs. multi-ship fights, either you leave the battle or the ship you Escaped leaves the battle, whichever is most advantageous for the other side.

                    I wonder if anyone has played a naval-combat heavy game and came up with a bunch of house rules and stuff. I don't think I've seen anyone mention it on the forums.

                    This also has me curious does naval combat count for per-turn mote regeneration?
                    I assumed not because I don't think there's anything in the corebook saying it does, and basically no other rule from ordinary combat applies to naval combat. But I agree it's intuitive that it does.

                    That said, I think it makes more sense to not regenerate than it at at first appears: There's not nearly as much to spend motes on in naval combat, so mote regeneration would probably lead to less interesting decisions. Also, because momentum is one-way, naval battles can't really drag on as much as ordinary battles. (The only situation I can think of is if your PCs are super outnumbered so you send them up against a bunch of ships at once and they have to chew through all of them.)

                    I imagine this must have come up in "Ask the Devs" at some point...

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                    • Question for this thread!

                      How many Ox-Bodies is enough Ox-Bodies? That is, is always picking Ox-Body the optimal combat choice if it is available? If it isn't, what is the optimal cutoff point?

                      I have a similar question for Solar Athletics. Excluding Ox-Body, above, is Foe-Vaulting Method and Thunderbolt Attack Prana (a five charm investment for both, 3 charm for one of them) always the best investment?

                      Do these answers change once you get some key Essence 1 charms (say 5 or less) from your primary attack/defense stat?

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                      • Foe-Vaulting Method is best combined with charms that work off surprise attacks. Otherwise I don't think it's amazing. Thunderbolt Attack Prana is both good and one of its prereqs is really good.

                        For Ox-Bodies... eh, it depends on the rest of your group, your soak, your Defence, how combaty the game is, etc. There's a lot of variables.


                        STing Bronze Age Exalted

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                        • Originally posted by SoulGambit View Post
                          Question for this thread!

                          How many Ox-Bodies is enough Ox-Bodies? That is, is always picking Ox-Body the optimal combat choice if it is available? If it isn't, what is the optimal cutoff point?

                          I have a similar question for Solar Athletics. Excluding Ox-Body, above, is Foe-Vaulting Method and Thunderbolt Attack Prana (a five charm investment for both, 3 charm for one of them) always the best investment?

                          Do these answers change once you get some key Essence 1 charms (say 5 or less) from your primary attack/defense stat?
                          For what purpose?

                          You can play a strict pacifist. In which case you don't need any Ox-Bodies. Exalted supports this, but most STs do not.

                          With unlimited resources, against the toughest opponents, more Ox-Bodies is always better.

                          For a real game, I think I just conclusively proved that you can have a lot of fun in combat with Dex/Melee 3 and two combat Charms.

                          That said, if you want to play a non-combatant, I'd advise starting with a defensive Charm or two (such as Dipping Swallow Defense and Pearlescent Filigree Defense), a single Ox-Body Technique, Dexterity 3 and Melee 2 with a mundane medium weapon (like a sword, or a shield if you want to be really non-combat). That gives you enough health levels to survive most alpha strikes and Defense 4 so you're not instagibbed by mortal farmers wielding sharp sticks. At this level, you are almost certainly a Supernal Craft scholar who can't afford to buy combat Charms: buying Ox-Bodies with XP is not a priority for you -- one will do. Socialite characters can run at this level, but I don't recommend it: consider taking one of the Social Martial Arts (Silver Voiced Nightingale, Black Claw, Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, Righteous Devil or Crane) and running at the next level below. Dawns should not run at this level: you are not being unique and clever, don't do it.

                          If you want to build a starting character who is capable in combat, but not a combat monster, I'd take one Ox-Body and four other combat Charms which fit your character concept. For example Ox-Body Technique, Excellent Strike, Dipping Swallow Defence, Fire and Stones Strike, & Call the Blade. You can buy all these Charms with Melee 3, Resistance 1 (though I'd recommend Resistance 3). You need some (1-3 dots and Excellency) Awareness, Dodge and Athletics, and consider one or two combat appropriate Specialities. Your choice of mundane light (offense) or mundane medium (defense) weapon. Light mundane armor is essentially essential at this level; heavier armor should only be considered by mounted characters or characters agnostic to battlefield positioning. You'll want to buy up a couple more Ox-Bodies with XP, but this shouldn't be a priority unless you have no healer in the Circle (I'd still buy them before buying any other combat Charms though) or you are a Dawn Caste (in which case, consider starting with upto three Ox-bodies, five other combat Charms and five dots in Dexterity and your primary Combat Ability). This is the level appropriate for the majority of PCs, from Dawns (who might want to invest a little more than average, as described above) to Twilights (providing they aren't Supernal Crafters). If the Tomb of Dreams characters were at full starting character strength, they'd be about here. Looking at the character creation and NPC guidance, this is the default Exalted power level.

                          If combat is your main focus, and you want to be a combat monster right out the gate, then I suggest starting with between 6-9 bonus health levels (so three-ish Ox-Bodies), an Onslaught negator, seven other Charms that directly effect your combat effectiveness (Thunderbolt Attack Prana counts as one of the seven but not it's prereqs), and four mobility Charms to help with Rush and Disengage. Definitely include Thunderbolt Attack Prana. Work on buying Sensory Acuity Prana through to Awakening Eye with XP (then buy up to the maximum 5 Ox-Bodies). Consider buying 5 dots in one ranged and one close Combat Ability, and in every other Ability marked "this Ability is important in combat", with your Bonus Points. Take a broadly applicable Specialty in your primary combat ability. Take an artifact weapon. You need armor that fits your play style -- artifact is best if you can afford it, as heavy as mobility penalty allows (if you are mounted or can ignore mobility penalty then you want Heavy armor). You've now made a combat monster that can breeze over 90% of antagonists without trying. You are One Punch Man: prepare for a campaign where you weep bitterly about not having any opposition who can challenge you.

                          In any case, you should talk with the ST and other players to get a feel for common expectations and power level.

                          ****

                          Foe Vaulting Method is insanely good, but only if you have something that keys off Surprise Attacks. Pick up Blinding Battle Feint, some Ebon Shadow Style and you don't even need to launch Withering attacks anymore. Just spam back to back 7i Decisives, backed by TAP where possible (and because Decisives are weapon agnostic, you can take a fighting chain for the +1 Parry and make all your attacks unarmed to combo with other Martial Arts). Poison also helps this build.

                          Without powers that key off Suprise Attacks FVM is still okay. It's not brilliant but it's okay -- very flavorful if you're playing an Athletic Nightwing-esque character who achieves victory by superior mobility. (If your foe can't ignore the Unexpected Attack penality to their DV and you are combat optimized then you were never going to struggle against that foe FVM or not. If your not combat optimized then you shouldn't care if FVM is optimal.)

                          TAP is just crazy good. You have to move and it costs WP. But it's a big damage bump. It is absolutely not necessary for combat. You can have a lot of fun without it, and be effective in combat encounters. But if you want an optimal build, you want TAP (unless you are a ranged fighter).

                          The Corebook recommends you have 2-5 combat Charms including at least one Ox-Body. This is good advice. Follow it.
                          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 03-20-2020, 06:58 AM.


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • I want to see what Mirror on Water Focus is like in practice. What should an Essence 5 water DB fight, and what should her supplementary abilities be, if any? Like resistance, brawl, dodge, etc.

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                            • Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                              I want to see what Mirror on Water Focus is like in practice. What should an Essence 5 water DB fight, and what should her supplementary abilities be, if any? Like resistance, brawl, dodge, etc.
                              Ahlat; Brawl, Occult, and Larceny. She has her weapon hidden at the start of the fight so Ahlat can’t use Measure the Wind on her, lets him underestimate her, and then whips out the sword and starts whoopin’ ass.
                              Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 03-26-2020, 03:55 AM.


                              He/him

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                              • Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                                Ahlat; Brawl, Occult, and Larceny. She has her weapon hidden at the start of the fight so Ahlat can’t use Measure the Wind on her, lets him underestimate her, and then whips out the sword and starts whoopin’ ass.
                                Didn't go very well for the DB. Maybe somebody who's not a directional war god.

                                Character

                                Fist 15 (Damage 10/1)
                                T. River 12 (Damage 17/5)
                                Parry 6
                                Soak 5



                                3/5/5

                                Wits 4
                                Awareness 4
                                Brawl 5 specialty unarmed
                                Melee 5 specialty Thundering River
                                Resistance 3
                                Occult 5

                                Awareness excellency

                                Melee charms up to Mirror on Water focus, Roaring River Slash, Graceful Flowing Defense and Root and Hand Merging

                                Occult charms up to Anathema-Sealing Tomb

                                Resistance charms up to 3 Ox Bodies and Flowing Dragon-Body Endurance

                                Larceny up to Naked Thief Style and Flowing God-Dragon Stance

                                Brawl up to Fist Spinning Maelstrom, Smashing Tidal Wave Technique and Embracing the Violent Flow.


                                Fight

                                Alhat won't spend motes to join battle, spending 5 motes and rolling 10i
                                Ezeri rolls 8+2 dice for 4m peripheral and getting 9i


                                Alhat 10i 115m 10wp
                                Ezeri 9i 16ps 34pp 7wp


                                Round 1
                                ===========
                                Alhat will go for a withering strike, spending 5m to excellency. Ezeri will spend 4m on Skin of Stone, and 2m on Eternal Tide Endurance.

                                Alat rolls 19 dice, getting 6, with two 1s. Then rolling 9 damage for 6.

                                Alhat 17i 110m 10wp
                                Ezeri 3i 10ps 34pp 7wp
                                ------------

                                Ezeri will take a full defense action, spending a mote to fill the area with a smell of the sea

                                Alhat 17i 110m 10wp
                                Ezeri 3i 10ps 33pp 7wp

                                Round 2
                                ===========
                                Alhat 17i 115m 10wp
                                Ezeri 3i 10ps 38pp 7wp

                                Alhat will go for a withering strike, spending 5m to excellency. Ezeri will spend 6m on parry and 1i for Blade-Deflecting Palm.

                                Alat rolls 19 dice, getting 9 and missing.

                                Alhat 17i 110m 10wp
                                Ezeri 2i 10ps 32pp 7wp
                                ------------

                                Ezeri spends 1a 3m to retrieve her direlance from her anima, then 7m 1wp on Mirror-On Water Focus.

                                Alhat 17i 110m 10wp
                                Ezeri 2i 3ps 29pp 6wp

                                Round 2
                                ===========
                                Alhat 17i 115m 10wp
                                Ezeri 2i 3ps 34pp 6wp

                                Alhat makes a decisive strike, using a 10m full excellency, 10m 1wp Blood Kisses Sand, and 15m 5i 1wp Ruin-Smiting Strike.

                                Ezeri will end MoWF to make a decisive counterattack, spending 6m on the excellency, 3m on Burning Fury Wreath, 3m wp on Crimson Fang Bite, Alhat will defend with 10m 1wp to add his current initiative to hardness.

                                with a hardness of 22 Alhat can not be damaged by the attack so it fizzles.

                                Alhat 17i 70m 8wp
                                Ezeri 2i 3ps 22pp 5wp

                                Alhat returns with a 24 die decisive, Ezeri will defend with 5m full excellency. Rolling 24 dice for 11, hitting by 2. Then rolling 14i+4 damage for a total of 13 levels of lethal, along with a wound that won't close

                                Alhat 6i 70m 8wp
                                Ezeri 2i 3ps 17pp 5wp 13L (-2s)
                                -----------

                                Ezeri will attempt a withering strike, spening 6m to excellency along with 3m 1wp for Crimson Fang Bite. Alhat will not spend motes to defend. Rolling 15 dice and getting only 6, then rolling 5 damage for nothing.

                                End of turn Ezeri loses 2i and one more L to the wound

                                Alhat 6i 70m 8wp
                                Ezeri 2i 3ps 17pp 5wp 14L (-2s)


                                Round 3
                                ===========
                                Alhat 6i 75m 8wp
                                Ezeri 2i 3ps 22pp 5wp 14L (-2s)

                                Alhat will give a withering strike, spending 10m to excellency then 4m on Horned God Prowess. Ezeri will defend with 4m Skin of Stone and 4m Ripples on Water, and 2m Eternal Tide Endurance. Rolling 24 dice for 15 against a parry of 8, with one 1.

                                Rolling 24 damage dice for 12, with two 1s making it 10 damage, crashing Ezeri.

                                Alhat 17i 61m 8wp
                                Ezeri -8i 3ps 12pp 5wp 14L (-2s)
                                -----------

                                Ezeri makes a withering strike, with a full excellency and CFB, Alhat will not spend motes to defend. 15 and getting 7, then rolling 5 damage for 3.

                                End of round Ezeri loses another 2i and a health level

                                Alhat 17i 61m 8wp
                                Ezeri -10i 3ps 3pp 4wp 15L (-4s)

                                Round 3
                                ===========
                                Alhat makes a decisive attack with 10m, Ezeri will defend with 6m excellency. The attack hits and with 17i yeilding 7 damage Ezeri is slain.


                                Turns out when Alhat decides to get serious and start using his charms, especially in combination with eachother, it gets pretty crazy. He didn't even use Whispering Warrior Souls or anything.

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