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  • #76
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    I'm curious what that was. I'd like to prevent something like that from happening in the future.
    It wasn't on this forum. The very short version is that we said that the way Rose-Lipped Seduction Style was fluffed and interacted with the social rules felt like asexual erasure to her, and a few other posters spoke up about feeling the same, and the reaction was surprisingly vicious for the site where this happened. I would indeed hope the reaction would be better here in the present.

    And within the game itself, the way the DB and Lunar sex-related Charms are very specifically written is a vast improvement from trying to use the Red and Orichalcum rules to deflect any and all criticism.

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    • #77
      Especially when my impression is some of these people commenting now may be the people who imitated that rhetorical style to the greatest extent, and liked it when they weren't its subject...
      The idea that it was the duty of the people who were being driven away by the poor behavior of the devs to instead reign them in and reform the community is kind of ridiculous.
      Last edited by Heart Attacks; 05-06-2019, 06:07 PM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Heart Attacks View Post

        The idea that it was the duty of the people who were being driven away by the poor behavior of the devs to instead reign them in and reform the community is kind of ridiculous.
        It's less ridiculous than you think, because you are presuming that'd be a primary or definitive solution, and it doesn't have to be to exist.

        You can't escape from that problem. Social categorizations are inevitable, and that fluke is a natural side effect.

        One of the workarounds for that problem is exactly having the affected parties make themselves heard. It's literally the only way to raise the issue when other parties are already participating in the aggravating behavior.

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        • #79
          People weren't silent about their feelings, so? The community was full of people who rallied around Holden and Morke and doubled down on defending their behavior (& their ideas, I guess.) There was some serious idol worship around the dev team during the transition era between the end of 2.5 and 3e.

          But so like no, nobody is obligated to participate in (let alone to take responsibility for) a community that alienates them, especially when it's for something as disposable as RPG discussion.
          Last edited by Heart Attacks; 05-06-2019, 10:15 PM.

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          • #80
            You are absolutely correct, no one is obligated to participate. And exercising that right already constitutes a way to tell the main group they are fucking up. It's effectiveness is debatable.

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            • #81
              Most of the pushback against their behavior was on other fora and Heart Attacks is quite right in asserting that the hero worship here did not leave room for critical feedback. Those two are gone, however, so it's a bit of a moot point. The only thing that matters now is undoing the damage to the brand and convincing the larger community that Ex3 is under new management and back on track.


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              • #82
                Originally posted by Heart Attacks View Post
                There was some serious idol worship around the dev team during the transition era between the end of 2.5 and 3e.
                Trust me, it goes back further than that.


                Onyx Path Forum Moderator
                Please spare a thought for updating the Exalted wiki.

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                • #83
                  When Holden was just a normal poster, and when he was an Ink Monkey, he always seemed pretty reasonable to me. The aggressive views towards anyone who criticised him I think only came much later. (His twitter has become much more angry and aggressive over time as well.) So I can see Lioness's point about a toxic environment.

                  Same with John Morke actually, I remember debating with him about some stuff when he was an Ink Monkey, and actually criticising his work (I said his charms were way too long) and he was okay. You know, we respecetfully disagreed, but he listened and said he'd take on board people's opinions. Whereas I know later people made quite serious complaints about him.

                  Some of the stuff they got really angry about being criticised for (like the Abyssal Presence preview), I think is the sort of thing they'd have taken in much better back when they were Ink Monkeys.


                  My characters:
                  Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                  Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                  • #84
                    So, anyway, moving on.

                    As I said, I play two Celestial games (one is just reaching Essence 5, the other is on like 450xp not counting Solar xp), which are continuations of 2nd ed games, and so have been going about... 11-12 years?
                    But I also started running an all-Lunar game recently. I wanted to try out the game at 0xp, which I haven't done for ages. So far it's been good, but it's only 2 sessions.

                    My friends also play a Solar game which has reached Essence 3, and a Dragonblood game which continued from 2nd ed, it's been going about 2-3 years I think, so also Essence 3 maybe?

                    Out of interest, anyone else who plays more than one game (or has started a new one), how similar/different do you find the games?

                    Both of the Celestial games I play are in the South, both are high-xp (as they've been going so long), though both mostly have characters who'd feel appropriate in a lower game (though the essence 5 game has 2 characters who would absolutely not feel appropriate in a 0xp game). Both are mostly around one area controlled by the PCs, but used to be more globe-trotting.

                    Neither game has fought the Realm or Raksha much so far. One game featured a lot of undead in the past but not now, the other game features a lot of undead now but not in the past. Both games have a Lunar girl with enormous Appearance. Both games used to feature a Malfeas/Cecylene Infernal.

                    So while they are different, they're not radically different (we used to say one game was much more grimdark than the other, but that's no longer the case).

                    I wonder if others have found that, or your two+ games are very different.


                    My characters:
                    Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                    Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by squidheadjax View Post
                      I would probably be playing more of it if the fanbase (with Holden helping to pile on) hadn't driven my friend who was the biggest Exalted fangirl I knew away from the game when she dared criticize some content that hit close to her identity, but after a long stretch of not playing it at all I'm finally in a DB game, running a Lunar game, and in a mixed-celestial (Solars and my Lunar) game.
                      Please tell her that she's more important to the game and its spirit, than the game is to most of us (sorry if that doesn't make sense, I swear I mean something positive). I'm sorry she had such a bad experience. We exalted fans should be on the same side.


                      Join the Strife

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Angwe View Post
                        Those two are gone, however, so it's a bit of a moot point. The only thing that matters now is undoing the damage to the brand and convincing the larger community that Ex3 is under new management and back on track.
                        I keep thinking that the wall raised against criticism to their vision affected the final Ex3 book. I agree with others that have stated that the core looks like a good first manuscript, but that much editing was needed.

                        The new devs write shorter charms, and have made (as far as I can tell) charmtrees which are easier to navigate. However, some overdesigned things from the core have carried over to the new material. For me, Ex3 was the chance to finally have a clean system. But each day that passes I'm more convinced that a serious revision of some rules is very needed.

                        I may be a minority here, I see a lot of guys playing just fine. But I want to play Exalted again and feel it is a game I can handle, in which my old friends can come back again without feeling like we're gonna play "homework: the game". I keep crossing my fingers for a potential solution for my needs. I know it sounds selfish, but hey! I've been playing since 2001, I think I deserve some kind of spiritual cookie haha.

                        Maybe the ST guide can be a good start. Remember when power combat appeared (that was in the player's guide), and let us play the same game in a new way (not saying a necessarily better way)? I'd be 100% interested in something that could simplify Ex3 and still kept all the valuable stuff in it.
                        Last edited by Gonzo; 05-07-2019, 02:05 PM.


                        Join the Strife

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                        • #87
                          So with 2e, they acknowledged the problems with their system late in the game line, attempted to account for it in their current work pretty hard (I don't remember who said it or where, that Infernals mechanics were a love letter to the game Exalted wanted to be), and eventually patched the entire system in one massive shot after everything was done.

                          I really hope that if the current team finds themselves feeling similarly about 3e (that it has problems that are intractable and need to be fixed for a healthy game), that they do that patch somewhere in the middle rather than way at the end.

                          I totally agree that I'd love an Exalted that I didn't need to study extensively before I could run it with a reasonable understanding of the rules. I feel like whenever I try to get back to Exalted I end up with a rules-light thing that roughly acknowledges everyone's character sheet and that's not really what I want (still at 2.5 though, still haven't waded into the 3e books much yet.)

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Gonzo View Post
                            I may be a minority here, I see a lot of guys playing just fine. But I want to play Exalted again and feel it is a game I can handle, in which my old friends can come back again without feeling like we're gonna play "homework: the game". I keep crossing my fingers for a potential solution for my needs. I know it sounds selfish, but hey! I've been playing since 2001, I think I deserve some kind of spiritual cookie haha.
                            It's my experience that it is easier to play than it appears. I barely had to filter more than chargen to get quick adventures running for absolute newbies.

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                            • #89
                              I played in a mixed mortal to Solar/Lunar game, a mixed Celestial game and ran an Infernals game all in 2/2.5.

                              I'd really like to play a Ex3 game but my schedule is relatively restrictive (and I'm in 3 other games currently) but my schedule was highly incompatible with my previous group (specifically that Weekend daytime games just don't work for me when they were the best times for everyone else) who have gone on to play several Ex3 games.

                              Someday hopefully, I'll find a group.

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                              • #90
                                Weekly with our gaming group... is pretty awesome in my opinion
                                Last edited by Tymeaus Jalynsfein; 05-17-2019, 01:47 PM.


                                The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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