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The Supernal-Must-be-in-caste mechanic

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
    To avoid derailing The aura thread more than it’s already been derailed.

    So personally I don’t see much value in limiting the supernal to the caste abilities? It basically massively reduces the scope of character concepts you can have at chargen, often with bizarre exclusions.

    You can’t be a Twilight making an academic study of strategy with War.
    Well, yes, because that's what Dawns do. This particular complaint makes little sense unless you just assume Dawns are nothing but idiot meatheads that bash things till they die. There is literally nothing preventing you from having an intelligent academically-focused Dawn with Supernal War .

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
      You can’t be a Twilight making an academic study of strategy with War.
      Obviously this isn't true. You're still very able to Favor War and put dots in it and buy seven War Charms right off the bat.

      Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
      You can’t be a Dawn caste admiral.
      There are twelve Essence 1 Sail Charms. There's no Charm prerequisite for being an admiral.

      Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
      You can’t be a Zenith writing holy commandments into stone.
      Ten Essence 1 Linguistics Charms. Also all it takes to know how to write is Linguistics 1.

      Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
      You can’t be a Dawn caste battle-sorcerer
      Not only is every Terrestrial Circle spell available at Essence 1, having Occult Supernal doesn't even get you any more access to sorcery than Joe Non-Supernal Occult.

      Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
      Burning Exorcism Technique is absolutely unavailable to a Zenith at chargen, as is any kind of high-essence medicine effect. Exorcism and healing the faithful isn’t in theme for them?
      The Zenith anima power lets them force a spirit to materialize. Moreover, even if they didn't have that, Phantom-Seizing Strike and Ghost-Eating Technique are all still Essence 1, as well as the option to pick up the exorcism thaumaturgy ritual, considering you get the thaumaturgy merit for free when you take Terrestrial Circle Sorcery.

      ​Also, you can cure a person of the Great Contagion with only Essence 1 Solar Charms. I can't stress that enough.
      Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 04-21-2019, 11:06 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
        Supernal limits are removed with the greatest of ease.

        There was an idea behind limiting them by Caste. It's not going to be to everybody's taste, and it's not a travesty.



        The signature Eclipse is a far-riding Delzhan.

        They're world-walkers in addition to socialites.
        And Nights can have Ride in-caste. That the other travel Ability didn't get to anyone else seems more like Blaque's mention of priorities in Ability distribution than to actual signature traits of the Caste, especially since that selfsame signature Eclipse doesn't seem to have or care about Sail, but there has been an emphasis on Eclipses being behind the scenes operators since the inception of the game.

        (Also, Abyssals and Infernals are apparently going to get different expanded options for the equivalent Solar Castes; Dusks getting Ride was one example.)

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        • #49
          Double post, ignore. Could have sworn that I only pressed send once...

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          • #50
            I'm inclined to treat the rule as a guideline - basically players can always take a Caste Ability as Supernal, but they can request to take another one if it really fits their concept and just need to justify it to me first.


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            • #51
              Hey all, I think I went a bit far in defence of this notion, so I just want to apologise if I was dismissive or narrow minded in responding. Certainly the double posting was a bit much.

              I do think that an out of caste Supernal is perfectly acceptable in negotiation with your ST, but I also see where y’all are coming from, and I’m not meaning to knock it.

              I won’t argue the point anymore, because I’m getting worked up over it when there’s really no need to.

              Your examples there are solid, Countalucard, and I would say that if your concept fits with a Supernal that Is available to you, absolutely that should be your first choice.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
                Your examples there are solid, Countalucard, and I would say that if your concept fits with a Supernal that Is available to you, absolutely that should be your first choice.
                They were your examples. They were in the first post in the thread and everything - all I did was show how you don't need a non-Caste Ability to be Supernal for you to still be largely defined by it.

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                • #53
                  What I got out of this discussion is that Sail probably should be a Dawn Caste ability because it does apply to combat on the high seas as much as war applies to leading armies, and Dawns got dodge and Resistance because they are common combat abilities and not because they are thematically appropriate. I'd probably swap Resistance for Sail on the Dawn caste list, as there aren't really any non-combat related uses for dodge, if I felt that it mattered.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                    They were your examples. They were in the first post in the thread and everything - all I did was show how you don't need a non-Caste Ability to be Supernal for you to still be largely defined by it.
                    Yeah, I... I was agreeing with you.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Frostav View Post

                      Well, yes, because that's what Dawns do. This particular complaint makes little sense unless you just assume Dawns are nothing but idiot meatheads that bash things till they die. There is literally nothing preventing you from having an intelligent academically-focused Dawn with Supernal War .
                      This has come up a couple of times on this thread, so I want to reinforce what Frostav has says.

                      Full Moons are the physical attribute caste. While its technically possible to make a Full Moon who's physical tertiary, it's a bit awkward.

                      Dawns are not, that just tends to be common.
                      A brilliant strategist who directs his armies from the back, out-reading and out-maneouvering his enemies, is a Dawn, not a Twilight. (At least, if that's his main focus.)

                      Similarly, a Twilight could be burly and physical. Perhaps they're an amazing smith, the best in the land, with huge muscles but little book-learning. Supernal Craft, favour Athletics and Melee.

                      It's actually No Moons who are the Intelligence-favouring Caste, after all, not Twilights. Hey, when I played a Twilight, I don't think he was even mental primary.


                      Originally posted by Hark
                      What I got out of this discussion is that Sail probably should be a Dawn Caste ability because it does apply to combat on the high seas as much as war applies to leading armies, and Dawns got dodge and Resistance because they are common combat abilities and not because they are thematically appropriate. I'd probably swap Resistance for Sail on the Dawn caste list,
                      Hmmm... I think Resistance fits. We have a Resistance-Supernal Dawn in his huge heavy armour, it makes sense to me.

                      I actually would take out Awareness. But tbh, I think it's a hard one.

                      as there aren't really any non-combat related uses for dodge, if I felt that it mattered.
                      Avoiding traps? I can't think of anything else.

                      Originally posted by TheCountAlucard
                      having Occult Supernal doesn't even get you any more access to sorcery than Joe Non-Supernal Occult.
                      Yeah, people always forget Occult is not really about sorcery, it's about spirits and exorcism.

                      Still, Alucard, while I see your point about being able to take a bunch of Essence 1 charms anyway, and it is a good point... if your point is "it doesn't matter that you can't take Supernal" then what's even the point of Supernal at all?


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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Ghosthead View Post

                        True, I suppose there is the workaround, say, (to go with my other example) you wanted to play the extremely smart Supernal tactician with no other major martial prowess, of playing a Dawn that buys War, spends nothing on any of his chosen Dawn Abilities, and then spends everything on his Favored Abilities, which are Twilight Abilities. It's something that the system is nudging against though.
                        You can do more with the ability spread if you move away from the traditional Dawn Caste ones Awareness, Resistance and Dodge all have things to offer that could be in service to this concept.


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                        • #57
                          Yeah, true, there are quite a few things that you can do to shape the chosen Caste Ability spread around the character as well. I suppose some of this is that it feels odd to me to be choosing the key strength you're interested in as a player, and then pick the caste dependent on that, and then try and shape general ability profile, and the Caste specific narrative (mainly around past lives) in line with that constraint. Rather than just picking your Caste somewhat independently of that concern (as in previous editions, where you did choose for a Solar PC to have a key strength at all).

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                          • #58
                            I think possibly the issue is that the devs felt that the key strength of a character and the genre-narrative of that caste would always go together, so picking them would seamlessly match.
                            And often, especially with common concepts, it does. Dawn swordsman, Eclipse courtier, Night thief, Twilight scholar, etc.

                            But no character gen system is perfect, and sometimes they don't connect together. And then you get the situation where some players choose their caste based on the supernal, not the narrative, which gets a bit odd.
                            The same thing happens with Role bonuses though.


                            My characters:
                            Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                            Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                            Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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                            • #59
                              I think there are always interesting concepts cut short by character creation being limited, but I also think those limitations can force you to look at a character in a new light and even come at concepts from different angles.

                              For instance, one character archetype I've wanted to play for awhile is a Swordsmansmith, who masters their craft of sword making by using the swords they make, then refining them over and over. Obviously such a character could be either a Dawn with Melee or a Twilight with Craft. And I think because there's a limit on Supernals, that concept could be viewed entirely differently based on which caste you pick and which Supernal you take.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                                And Nights can have Ride in-caste. That the other travel Ability didn't get to anyone else seems more like Blaque's mention of priorities in Ability distribution than to actual signature traits of the Caste, especially since that selfsame signature Eclipse doesn't seem to have or care about Sail, but there has been an emphasis on Eclipses being behind the scenes operators since the inception of the game.
                                Swan came from the West, didn't he?

                                He seems to me to have been more of a world-walker than he was a behind-the-scenes operator.



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