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The Supernal-Must-be-in-caste mechanic

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  • #61
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Hmmm... I think Resistance fits. We have a Resistance-Supernal Dawn in his huge heavy armour, it makes sense to me.

    I actually would take out Awareness. But tbh, I think it's a hard one.
    I'll be honest awareness is such a poor fit that I forgot Dawn's get it, so I picked dropping resistance over dodge. Awareness is definitely the one to drop. It's kinda weird to have it classes a combat ability because that just so happens to be mechanically where Join Battle suits. Its definitely not an iconic awareness thing.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
      To avoid derailing The aura thread more than it’s already been derailed.

      So personally I don’t see much value in limiting the supernal to the caste abilities? It basically massively reduces the scope of character concepts you can have at chargen, often with bizarre exclusions.

      You can’t be a Twilight making an academic study of strategy with War.
      You can’t be a Dawn caste admiral.
      You can’t be a Zenith writing holy commandments into stone.
      You can’t be a Dawn caste battle-sorcerer
      Burning Exorcism Technique is absolutely unavailable to a Zenith at chargen, as is any kind of high-essence medicine effect. Exorcism and healing the faithful isn’t in theme for them?

      To be clear, I’m not badmouthing the caste ability distribution. I think it works just fine. I just don’t get why Supernal being limited to it is necessary or helpful.
      I think this can be solved easily by applying the Golden Rule, pg 182 of Ex3 core.

      If you don’t like one of these rules,
      change it. If a rule is getting in the way of having fun,
      throw it out. If you have an idea that would work better
      for your group than one of the rules here, go with that.
      Nobody knows better than you what you’ll find fun.

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      • #63
        I mean, that's always the case. The thread is really whether it's good for the game to change. Of course, at your table you can change anything.


        My characters:
        Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
        Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
        Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
          Still, Alucard, while I see your point about being able to take a bunch of Essence 1 charms anyway, and it is a good point... if your point is "it doesn't matter that you can't take Supernal" then what's even the point of Supernal at all?
          I think the point is more, "Supernal doesn't matter as much as people are making it out to." Supernal matters because it lets you gain access to higher level Charms early, and that's a significant impact on play. It's just something that isn't essential, and something that matters less and less as time goes on.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Tytalus View Post

            I think this can be solved easily by applying the Golden Rule, pg 182 of Ex3 core.
            Rule zero isn't exactly useful for discussion in a public forum. The rules form the common basis by which all discussions take place. Even in private use the golden rule can serve as an obstacle to bringing in new people to game as they understand the game in terms of the published rules. Really, I consider all 3 for those rules to be absolutely terrible, so I avoid them.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Tytalus View Post

              I think this can be solved easily by applying the Golden Rule, pg 182 of Ex3 core.
              Ah but of course XD
              I think there’s a lot of “why would you ever”/“why would you ever not”, and obviously that’s going to come down to your taste and your table.
              I know that some people (myself included) start most solar concepts by thinking of a Supernal that appeals, and building a concept around it that is evocative. If I think the concept fits a different caste I bump up against a rule telling me No. There are RAW ways to deal with this, but I don’t really want to do them because the character doesn’t feel accurate to what I intended.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

                I think the point is more, "Supernal doesn't matter as much as people are making it out to." Supernal matters because it lets you gain access to higher level Charms early, and that's a significant impact on play. It's just something that isn't essential, and something that matters less and less as time goes on.
                That's fair.
                Certainly in the Essence 4 and 5 games I play, Supernal is pretty irrelevant, but I assume it's more of a thing at lower levels.


                My characters:
                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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                • #68
                  Yep... though the Charm trees also matter at lower Essence. Part of the issue I think is that some Charm trees are varied a lot in how much specialization (and thus how deep you can really afford to go early on with Supernal).

                  Like Melee, which is probably going to be your primary offense and defense Ability if you go Supernal with it, plus all the important utility Charms, means trying to rush towards the top of the tree in offense Charms might be leaving your really screwed compared to someone that spread their Charms around more. A master sword user can't just focus on attacking. Meanwhile, over in Athletics, if you want to do the feats of strength tree, rushing to the top of that goes a long way, and sure the rest of Athletics is nice, but you'll have plenty of Charms left to play around anyway.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Maseiken View Post

                    You can’t be a Twilight making an academic study of strategy with War.
                    You can’t be a Dawn caste admiral.
                    You can’t be a Zenith writing holy commandments into stone.
                    You can’t be a Dawn caste battle-sorcerer
                    Burning Exorcism Technique is absolutely unavailable to a Zenith at chargen, as is any kind of high-essence medicine effect. Exorcism and healing the faithful isn’t in theme for them?
                    Which one of these concepts requires the specific Ability in question to have the character's STRONGEST charms?


                    Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Hark View Post
                      Really, I consider all 3 for those rules to be absolutely terrible, so I avoid them.
                      You'd sooner go for a confluence of rules that produces a nonsensical result?


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        You'd sooner go for a confluence of rules that produces a nonsensical result?
                        I'll let you know when it comes up. 20+ years of role playing, still hasn't happened. Seriously, I've never seen a campaign last more than a session after an invocation of the "Orichalcum" Rule, or as I call it the Abusive DM rule. But let's not talk about it. This is a tangent that only bad things can come from, and I shouldn't have started it.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          Swan came from the West, didn't he?

                          He seems to me to have been more of a world-walker than he was a behind-the-scenes operator.
                          Swan's greatest emphasis in past editions was on Martial Arts over everything else, with a sideline in being really acrobatic and light on his feet. He was the Snake Style poster boy since 1e, in fact. He was also a Coral Warrior-Diplomat, which meant while being a dashing man of action, he was also a behind the scenes operator in most respects - negotiator of treaties, broker of business deals, handler of contracts with unruly privateers. He also manages to get his "world walker" thing, if any, done with basement ratings in Ride and Sail and no Charms in either Ability. His primary emphasis in Eclipse-dom seems to be Socialize, and then Bureaucracy. The Eclipse in the popular eye who seems to use Sail most is Admiral Sand, and he still has a higher Bureaucracy rating than Sail in his original appearance in CB:E.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                            Swan's greatest emphasis in past editions was on Martial Arts over everything else, with a sideline in being really acrobatic and light on his feet. He was the Snake Style poster boy since 1e, in fact. He was also a Coral Warrior-Diplomat, which meant while being a dashing man of action, he was also a behind the scenes operator in most respects - negotiator of treaties, broker of business deals, handler of contracts with unruly privateers. He also manages to get his "world walker" thing, if any, done with basement ratings in Ride and Sail and no Charms in either Ability. His primary emphasis in Eclipse-dom seems to be Socialize, and then Bureaucracy. The Eclipse in the popular eye who seems to use Sail most is Admiral Sand, and he still has a higher Bureaucracy rating than Sail in his original appearance in CB:E.
                            I'm honestly losing track of what this tangent between us is about.


                            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Hark View Post
                              Rule zero isn't exactly useful for discussion in a public forum. The rules form the common basis by which all discussions take place. Even in private use the golden rule can serve as an obstacle to bringing in new people to game as they understand the game in terms of the published rules. Really, I consider all 3 for those rules to be absolutely terrible, so I avoid them.
                              Exalted 3e I think is notable in that it puts the Golden Rule et al. as the very firs three rules in the entire Systems Chapter. So while you have your own philosophy on such things, I think that there is osmething to be discussed in their context since the original devs were pretty clear that the rules are not universally perfect for every instance and for every table.


                              And stuff.
                              My DeviantArt Page // My tumblr // Exalted 3e Houserules

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Blaque View Post

                                Exalted 3e I think is notable in that it puts the Golden Rule et al. as the very firs three rules in the entire Systems Chapter. So while you have your own philosophy on such things, I think that there is osmething to be discussed in their context since the original devs were pretty clear that the rules are not universally perfect for every instance and for every table.
                                There are plenty of games that put them as the first paragraph of the book, that doesn't change a damned thing about those rules.

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