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  • Flurry: Why Would You Even...

    Okay, I've just started playing my first Lunar. She's pretty fun, a ladybug totem, and when designing her deadly beastman form, I gave her Extra Arms because it felt flavourful. Aha, I thought, this will give me a chance to play a character who uses Flurry in battle!

    Now I've read the Flurry rules. Or rather the exceptions to the Flurry rules. And I'm left kinda feeling like a chump for picking Extra Arms.

    What actions aren't hit with the 'can't be placed in a flurry' hammer? About the only ones I can see are movement actions, social actions, and miscellaneous. Is there anything interesting I can do with a second action like this? As it stands I find my choices... underwhelming

  • #2
    Shield allows Full Defense while moving. Attacking and moving doesn’t take a flurry, but attacking and disengaging does iirc?


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
      What actions aren't hit with the 'can't be placed in a flurry' hammer?
      The actions that can be placed in a flurry include attacks (you can't attack more than once, but you can flurry one with other actions), defend other, miscellaneous actions, rush, disengage, rise from prone, take cover, withdraw, concealment, and social attempts that make sense.

      Personally, I think that's a pretty wide range of possible actions. Flurrying an attack with a rush or disengage is critical for a hit-and-run strategy in combat, flurrying attacks with concealment can give you the bonus for a surprise attack every round, and flurrying take cover with attacks is great for a sniper dodging in and out of cover. Also bear in mind that "miscellaneous actions" is actually a pretty huge category - want to pick a lock while holding off an enemy? Solve a riddle while preventing the animated sphinx statue that asked it from smacking you? Write a love letter that you'll leave to infuriate a Dynast, while hiding from him as he hunts you? All miscellaneous actions.

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      • #4
        This... might be an uninteresting answer for you...

        I allow players to use flurry / misc actions to set themselves up for better stunt bonuses. I'm really liberal with one point stunts, mark maaaybe one two point stunt per scene, and xaj go whole stories without awarding a 3 point stunt.

        But, if the player takes some action to set up the stunt (throw sand in an opponents eyes before a charge, topple a column, grab hold of a tapestry, make an entertaining or interesting observation about an antagonist, etc) I'm mandated to give a 2 point and pretty likely to give a three point stunt.

        I also allow miscellaneous actionsto attack an object, lock a door, spread oil over a tomb floor (we have an alchemist in the player circle) spot which is the real antagonist when they fought a Master of Obsidian Shards of Infinity....

        Of course, this is stuff I do in my game. The utility of misc actions really have a lot to do with how willing the ST is to let other actions and possibilities pop up in conflicts.


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        • #5
          As a note, do remember Extra Limbs has an additional benefit it doesn't mention: You can wield several weapons at once as long as you take Ready Weapon actions for weapons past your first one. That said it is overall a bit underwhelming of a benefit, yep.

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          • #6
            Kelly, you cannot flurry an attempt to enter concealment.


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            • #7
              More often than not, flurries are more something you Have to do rather than Wanting to. Rising from prone, Rushing, Disengaging. Defend Other and Draw/Ready. Extra limbs as written with this in mind is more about efficiency and not slowing down. It’s handy because you can shunt off the -3 to dice,ess actions or actions with low difficulties like drawing a weapon or rising from prone.

              THAT SAID if your concept involves being an awesome Dervish, of course your ST should try to facilitate its awesomeness. The main thing is that multiattacks in 3e are pretty much exclusively charmspace, and powerful charms at that.

              Weapon tags are better than we tend to realise, so a nice spread of weapon size and type could be handy.

              Personally I’d also consider giving you a bonus to a distract gambit Or allowing you to flurry another action with your grapple effect (but still limited to one effect per turn). Those solutions aren’t RAW but could make playing an extra limbs character more fun.

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              • #8
                Honestly I think the flurry penalty reduction is like, the least of the potential benefits of multiple limbs.

                Being able to wield a light, medium and heavy two-handed weapon at the same time? Come on, the possibilities are endless.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
                  The actions that can be placed in a flurry include attacks (you can't attack more than once, but you can flurry one with other actions), defend other, miscellaneous actions, rush, disengage, rise from prone, take cover, withdraw, concealment, and social attempts that make sense.

                  Personally, I think that's a pretty wide range of possible actions. Flurrying an attack with a rush or disengage is critical for a hit-and-run strategy in combat, flurrying attacks with concealment can give you the bonus for a surprise attack every round, and flurrying take cover with attacks is great for a sniper dodging in and out of cover. Also bear in mind that "miscellaneous actions" is actually a pretty huge category - want to pick a lock while holding off an enemy? Solve a riddle while preventing the animated sphinx statue that asked it from smacking you? Write a love letter that you'll leave to infuriate a Dynast, while hiding from him as he hunts you? All miscellaneous actions.
                  Mmm. Most of those situations IMO don't require a flurry though. You can roll while applying your defense to the first two, and roll for writing after you've hit concealment for the third. This kinda makes me feel strengthened in my PoV that the flurry rules are minimalistic. The big combat useful option are the movement rules which... generally never come up when I'm in a combat. Everyone likes straightforward hand to hand too much. (and those who don't go for sorcery, which flat out can't be flurried)

                  Originally posted by Janissary87 View Post
                  This... might be an uninteresting answer for you...

                  I allow players to use flurry / misc actions to set themselves up for better stunt bonuses. I'm really liberal with one point stunts, mark maaaybe one two point stunt per scene, and xaj go whole stories without awarding a 3 point stunt.

                  But, if the player takes some action to set up the stunt (throw sand in an opponents eyes before a charge, topple a column, grab hold of a tapestry, make an entertaining or interesting observation about an antagonist, etc) I'm mandated to give a 2 point and pretty likely to give a three point stunt.

                  I also allow miscellaneous actionsto attack an object, lock a door, spread oil over a tomb floor (we have an alchemist in the player circle) spot which is the real antagonist when they fought a Master of Obsidian Shards of Infinity....

                  Of course, this is stuff I do in my game. The utility of misc actions really have a lot to do with how willing the ST is to let other actions and possibilities pop up in conflicts.
                  Hmm... this is a more tempting way to look at it. I'm not sure I'd take all the misc actions you'd outlined, but it gets me thinking of Misc actions as something to alter the battlefield. Tip over the barrel to set up for a firewand shot, drop the torch on a wooden bridge while punching fools who try to cross it...As you say, down to ST sufferance, but it's probably my best bet. Thanks!

                  Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                  As a note, do remember Extra Limbs has an additional benefit it doesn't mention: You can wield several weapons at once as long as you take Ready Weapon actions for weapons past your first one. That said it is overall a bit underwhelming of a benefit, yep.
                  Especially for a Brawler. :smallwink: I technically also have the option of Medicine rolls, but without that snazzy Instant Treatment charm, they aren't too great.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
                    Mmm. Most of those situations IMO don't require a flurry though. You can roll while applying your defense to the first two, and roll for writing after you've hit concealment for the third.
                    So, for the first example, change it to "pick a lock while defending a friend", and for the second, "solve a riddle while staying out of melee range with the sphinx". And while you could write that letter afterwards, that assumes you have the time.

                    If the ST is giving you unlimited time to accomplish things, not having opponents be mobile, and not trying to arrange situations where you have to pull out new weapons, rise from prone, etc., then yeah, flurries probably won't be as useful. I would say the best solution in that case is to point out to the ST that your investment in Extra Arms isn't really paying off, and ask them to either introduce more things in combat that require flurrying, or to discount your Extra Arms merit a bit and let you take something else with the dots you spent.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post

                      Mmm. Most of those situations IMO don't require a flurry though. You can roll while applying your defense to the first two
                      I think you're saying something about Defend Other here, but I'm unclear as to precisely what.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post

                        So, for the first example, change it to "pick a lock while defending a friend", and for the second, "solve a riddle while staying out of melee range with the sphinx". And while you could write that letter afterwards, that assumes you have the time.

                        If the ST is giving you unlimited time to accomplish things, not having opponents be mobile, and not trying to arrange situations where you have to pull out new weapons, rise from prone, etc., then yeah, flurries probably won't be as useful. I would say the best solution in that case is to point out to the ST that your investment in Extra Arms isn't really paying off, and ask them to either introduce more things in combat that require flurrying, or to discount your Extra Arms merit a bit and let you take something else with the dots you spent.
                        *shrug* The ST's new to Exalted and not really comfortable putting us under that kinda pressure. I'm considering asking for a form rejig (I haven't used it yet, which helps) I'm stuck kinda though: I feel at this point there's just enough for me to think maybe, but not enough for me to feel confident in it. Like, I can try and find a way to get a working Shield tag alongside my artifact gauntlets, or look for misc actions to take in combat, but this still feels really edge case. (And my party as a whole has the numbers/means to make the range thing difficult for the ST to pull off anyway)

                        Like, all of the examples you cited are not things my character's really designed to do. She's a warleader/trickster type. She's got medical charms... but Lunar Medical charms don't really do much on the combat timescale. Mass combat actions can't be flurried. Sorcery can't be flurried until you hit higher essence. Establish Concealment, maybe, though 'multiple arms help me be stealthy' is goddamned ridiculous... but that requires set up and isn't gonna kick in all the time.

                        I guess I'm after Flurryable actions that're more active rather than reactive? Things I can do to set the pace and take control. ;Random Environment stuff' really seems like the best bet for that for now.

                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        I think you're saying something about Defend Other here, but I'm unclear as to precisely what.
                        That it's best used by someone with a really good Parry and a reflexive Defend Other charm? Like, it's got its uses and any character might take it occasionally, but when I'm taking flurry penalties or penalties for making a Smashing attack or using Deadly Beastman Transformation, Heaven forbid all three at once... I'd kinda rather be the beneficiary of a Defend Other action rather than use it.

                        Plus, as above, it's passive. It's like taking a full defense action as a tank in D&D. You can call it tactically important if you want but it's goddamned boring. I'm more the 'live dangerously' type.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
                          That it's best used by someone with a really good Parry and a reflexive Defend Other charm?
                          I can't deny that the existence of such Charms renders one of the most apparent things that might be flurried to give Extra Limbs something to do a bit redundant.

                          The only other thing I could think of to benefit the Merit is to try and imagine miscellaneous actions that play in particular off of having them, such as say being able to climb or maintain a grip on an edge in the same round as making an attack.

                          But it does admittedly not feel like much. It's a pity; Extra Limbs feels like a compelling mutation to take for a number of spirit shapes, but when a number of its applications end up being redundant with Charms and it would take up half of your hybrid body's allotment, it feels like a bit of a waste.

                          Originally posted by Croakamancer
                          Plus, as above, it's passive. It's like taking a full defense action as a tank in D&D. You can call it tactically important if you want but it's goddamned boring. I'm more the 'live dangerously' type.
                          It might mechanically play out passively, but I've always found the image of somebody whose fighting style includes a lot of intercepting attacks directed at their allies to be very compelling.

                          As I recall, a particular instance of such a thing in Macross Frontier has made me cry.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                          • #14
                            The flurry penalty negation might not be as powerfull as it sounds before looking at what action can actually be flurried, but looking at other 3-dot mutations that grant +2 dice on some specific action like Bounding Legs or Silent Movement it seems pretty fair considering it also lets you hold multiple weapons and the like.

                            Now for lunars specifically it can be combined with Natural Shield mutation and Shadow Hands Invocation to flurry full defense with shape sorcery with no penalties at E2, which gets pretty crazy if you combo it with Crane Form, but thats not really something your character seems set up to do being neither a martial artist or sorceror.

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                            • #15
                              I allow and encourage flurried actions to coordinate attacks. As a Gambit, a combatant can take a relevant War roll to get his allies into position and attack / gambit all together. I let them then share a Stunt - which always gets a big bonus by the time we've all added to the idea. And then decide what order to go in.

                              The combatant making the War roll does so as a flurried action.


                              Edit to add: Flurries in 2nd Ed were a nightmare, because you could wind up with quite a lot of actions... and then have to process through all of them. 3rd Ed arguably went too far the other direction.

                              If you'd like an idea, that might work for you and your ST, you might come up with a way to roll one attack and have it affect multiple targets in range.

                              I do also really like the hit & run suggestion above. It's a very Lunar thing to do, to swoop in and out on wings, or to burrow under and abduct an enemy down a murder hole.
                              Last edited by Simon Darkstep; 05-02-2019, 07:06 PM.


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