Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Feeling Limited

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Then roll a dragonblooded they dont get limit my heart of flint monk limit broke when our dawn limit broke and hit beserker rage and my character had enough of his drek and one high join battle thunderbolt attack decisive attack later (bashing damage is your friend) everything was cool.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by squidheadjax View Post

      I have never understood how anyone finds that sidebar useful. There are so many paired contradictions that they may as well just say 'good luck threading the needle'. Make it suck, but not too much, but definitely don't let it happen at a time when it might not suck enough...
      Even within the bounds of different tastes and priorities, I find this to be a just plain inaccurate take on the sidebar.

      It informs the Storyteller of their responsibilities, and emphasizes the point that Virtue Flaws should be assigned with consideration to not ruining a player's concept of their character.

      That's not "make it suck but not enough", that's don't make it a punishment or something entirely contrary to the character.

      Considering the specifics of the innumerable complaints about the Great Curse over the years, I'd say that's fine advice to give both on the fronts of giving Storytellers a model to be guided by and assuring players that the point is not to screw them over and the Storyteller who does so is out of order.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by armyofwhispers View Post

        I highly suspect this is gone in 3e.

        2e alchemicals we're the prototypes of each exalt type. In 3e no one can make an exaltation except the being who makes the exalt
        I have a vague impression that Vance once said something along the lines of retaining the Limit reduction. Nothing about that is dependent on the backstory of Authochthon creating them as prototypes.

        Honestly, the association in even its original context often felt a bit tenuous to me.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

        Comment


        • #19
          It was more the Permanent Limit/Clarity thing that I found very much unappealing, the Limit reduction thing I found more nonsensical than anything else.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Alistair View Post
            It was more the Permanent Limit/Clarity thing that I found very much unappealing
            Considering that was a thing for Essence 6 Alchemicals or higher, I don't think that it was meant to come up often in people's actual players.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

              Considering that was a thing for Essence 6 Alchemicals or higher, I don't think that it was meant to come up often in people's actual players.

              Weren't there also other mechanics that did this? Like certain Charms that permanently raised it. Well, regardless, since Essence prerequisites are being dropped to less than E5 for most things, it's something I wouldn't like coming back. Going back to the topic at hand... Limit sometimes feels fun, sometimes feels like being punished for not playing up to your character concept and Intimacies, it kind of depends on the game itself. Most games I've been in haven't really asked for Limit rolls a lot, if at all, and none of my characters have ever entered Limit Break yet, though.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Alistair View Post


                Weren't there also other mechanics that did this? Like certain Charms that permanently raised it.
                There were Charms that raised it for as long as they were installed. You lost it when they were switched out.

                Originally posted by Alistair
                Well, regardless, since Essence prerequisites are being dropped to less than E5 for most things, it's something I wouldn't like coming back.
                I think that Alchemicals are the one Exalted type where it's perfectly reasonable to keep their old take on Essence above 5, since it already effectively kept them from being an overwhelming presence in the setting, left no awkward questions about what their powers up there were like, and their setting was literally built on it.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                  Even within the bounds of different tastes and priorities, I find this to be a just plain inaccurate take on the sidebar.

                  It informs the Storyteller of their responsibilities, and emphasizes the point that Virtue Flaws should be assigned with consideration to not ruining a player's concept of their character.

                  That's not "make it suck but not enough", that's don't make it a punishment or something entirely contrary to the character.

                  Considering the specifics of the innumerable complaints about the Great Curse over the years, I'd say that's fine advice to give both on the fronts of giving Storytellers a model to be guided by and assuring players that the point is not to screw them over and the Storyteller who does so is out of order.
                  This is probably intensely colored by my frustrating and hurtful negative personal interactions with Morke and Holden, but to me the sidebar reads more like a way to say 'if it caused problems, it's your fault for doing it wrong' than anything else. What would actually be useful to me is advice on _dealing with it_, not the blanket proclamation that it's good if it causes drama. Maybe some advice to help provide perspective on how to deal with it if it _does_ ruin a player's experience (especially if it spoils things _for someone else_ aside from the player whose character snapped).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by squidheadjax View Post
                    to me the sidebar reads more like a way to say 'if it caused problems, it's your fault for doing it wrong' than anything else.
                    I don't see it. I don't find it to be focusing on the negative. I don't think it's absolving the system of causing problems to be sure, but I feel as though the written emphasis is to put Storytellers in mind to not look to create problems.

                    It lays out the dramatic intent at the same time as it's saying that it's not an excuse to run rough shod over players. The point about when to defer it just as a clarification of not having it just go if in a situation solely because the track reached 10; given some complaints about Limit Break in the past, that reads to me a lot less like saying to reserve it for a time when it will be the worst than it does about preventing it from being random and inconsequential. I find it to be primarily concerned with maintaining the credibility of the Great Curse.

                    The idea of advice on how to redeem a situation that went bad... that feels kind of beyond the scope of a sidebar, and possibly the book in general. I don't know roleplaying games much beyond Exalted, so I couldn't say whether such an approach is a standard practice elsewhere.

                    Perhaps something like that will be in the Storyteller's Guide, which might be a more appropriate place for it in any case.

                    Originally posted by squidheadjax
                    the player whose character snapped).
                    Now, one thing I do think the sidebar is trying to do is convey an impression that the Great Curse has more nuance and character fidelity than them just snapping. I think even that might help to mitigate bad plays, if it's conveyed as something to place as a logical extension of action rather than a sudden explosion.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I think 'snapped' is a rather minimizing way to summarize msny of the Virtue Flaws actually. They're supposed to not be normal, even if potentially looking from the outside like the character is just being a little Extra.

                      And I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that the core book would address the question of "How do I implement this mechanic that represents a signature setting element that was specifically crafted in-setting to fuck over the characters, without ruining the player's (and, as a player, my own - it's not like this is automatically a question the player is going to be able to answer) ability to enjoy the character?" with something more substantial than "Don't do that thing you just said." The closest it comes to actual advice is not to pick something completely opposite to the character's normal behavior... except, y'know, maybe.

                      Nothing at all for the case where the player says, "Things are already pretty intense and stressful and I don't want any of these to happen right now."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Note that while the defining intimacy created by limit break is special when it comes to resisting social influence, it's not in any other way stronger than a normal defining intimacy.

                        It also doesn't stop all social influence, the only difference is that when social influence could be treated as unacceptable it must be, but the book is pretty restrictive with what can be treated as unacceptable in the first place. You can't be convinced to go entirely against the prescribed behaviour, but you can temporarily supress it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Just a little thing: who says it's invisible to your character?

                          You don't know that you're under a Great Curse and are precisely this many Madness Units from going mad, but surely you have noticed that you're doing things that take a toll on you. You get Limit primarily from:

                          Things that tweak your Limit Trigger

                          Violating a Defining or Major Imtimacy

                          Spending WP to shake off influences that otherwise would've worked.

                          It's absolutely in-character to think "y'know, maybe I *should* start accepting the points my debate partners make - they really do seem reasonable" or "I don't want to go see the Merchant Prince, I want to do something else, because I know slavery grinds my gears and if I have to sit across from this guy while a djala brings the drinks, I'm gonna do something rash upside his head."
                          Last edited by Amayad; 05-19-2019, 04:44 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by squidheadjax View Post
                            I think 'snapped' is a rather minimizing way to summarize msny of the Virtue Flaws actually. They're supposed to not be normal, even if potentially looking from the outside like the character is just being a little Extra.

                            And I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that the core book would address the question of "How do I implement this mechanic that represents a signature setting element that was specifically crafted in-setting to fuck over the characters, without ruining the player's (and, as a player, my own - it's not like this is automatically a question the player is going to be able to answer) ability to enjoy the character?" with something more substantial than "Don't do that thing you just said." The closest it comes to actual advice is not to pick something completely opposite to the character's normal behavior... except, y'know, maybe.

                            Nothing at all for the case where the player says, "Things are already pretty intense and stressful and I don't want any of these to happen right now."
                            Well for one when the right time to use limit break is going to vary based on a lot of circumstances. My group for example aren't out to court it, but they don't put much more into avoiding gaining limit than they would in staying in line with their major intimacies. Whereas Taleski mentions his ST has had to veto limit checks because of how much they enjoy limit break happening in game. Consequently, in complete absence of knowledge of any characters the advice of "wait for it to be interesting, but be careful that your 'interesting' doesn't completely ruin someone's character."**

                            The problem is the "Well I'd rather this didn't happen because we're in a tight spot already" isn't one of the things I'd list as a deterrent to a limit break. Oh sure you need to pick the right one since All Consuming Grief might end up amounting to a skip your next turn card if you're in the middle of the Wyld Hunt attacking, whereas Compassionate Martyrdom would work brilliantly in that case most of the time.

                            Mind to my way of thinking it isn't the limit break that would make a character unplayable to some people its what might happen based on some circumstances. Hell you can see an obvious case where preventative text was put in on Rampaging Avarice to specify that it isn't so bad as to compel your character to rape or murder just because they're in limit break. (Considering I recall at least one person on these forums arguing against Limit Break as a concept citing the example of an ST going, "Well you're at limit 10, so you break now go rape the princess you're supposed to be rescuing." Its probably helpful for some to have the extra enforcement there.) So you know its a bit of a case of thinking things through and case by case on the issue like the sidebar says. Heck most examples I see just tend to pick limit breaks that would go off how the character is feeling at the time its going to trigger.


                            **I'm reminded of the old bit about how Jean Grey's death in Dark Pheonix happened because an artist decided to populate a world she destroyed as Pheonix and one of the major heads refused to let her live through it when she now had a civilized world as her body count. On how that can happen unitentionally.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                              There were Charms that raised it for as long as they were installed. You lost it when they were switched out.
                              The Weaving charms in particular raised clarity, but you couldn't remove them once installed. I think every other charm with permanent clarity could be removed but in my experience most people who played alchemicals didn't make much use of the ability to swap out charms and thus the clarity was effectively permanent. Made worse if you actually used the array (alchemical version of combos) rules as written


                              Check out my homebrew exalt: The Fabulists - Chosen of the Raksha here

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                True, but to be fair, I generally found clarity less awkward than limit anyway.
                                It could make your character a bit unmotivated though.


                                I play...
                                Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                                Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X