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Flowing Mind Prana and giving Intimacies to other players

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  • Flowing Mind Prana and giving Intimacies to other players

    I play a Lore Supernal and I find the teaching Charms can take away from the enjoyment of a game because you have to give a ton of Intimacies to the players you train.

    Just teaching someone a single non-caste Charm means I have to give them 3 new intimacies!

    In a typical scenario where I spend 20xp on my Circle, I basically have to come up with 15 intimacies in total (6 for the main target and 3 for the other 3 targets), which is simply ridiculous and becomes clutter rather than something enjoyable.

    I can also strengthen Intimacies if they're Intimacies my character hold, but I'm not really comfortable with giving someone a new Defining just because I taught them how to read and swim? Plus I feel it takes away from the individuality of other Players if we all have a bunch of Defining Intimacies in common.

    Has anyone else here dealt with having to give Intimacies to fellow players, and how did you go about it?

  • #2
    Personally, I'd choose to read the line in Flowing Mind Prana that "The Solar may choose which Intimacy is conferred" as including the possibility of no Intimacy being transferred. I don't think the Intimacy-transfer effect of FMP is supposed to be a limitation on the charm. Instead, I think it's pretty much the point of the charm, and limiting a Solar teacher to only being able to train characters if they have a whole bunch of intimacies to confer seems wrong to me.

    Frankly, I think the charm could be significantly simplified by just saying that if a character accepts a lesson granted by the Solar teacher, it also counts as an automatically successful Instill attempt to instill one of the Solar's Intimacies in the student, which they can't spend WP to avoid if they want to benefit from the lesson.

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    • #3
      Personally, I disagree that having Intimacies in common is all that bad for player characters; especially since a) you know what they are; and b) they’re harder to erode than normal Intimacies.

      For example, in the game I’m running, the other Eclipse in the group, Robin, has Flowing Mind Prana, and has elected to give Knight Raiton and Invisible Horse Princess some XP. She selected a Principle of “I want to make the world a better place.” Her knowing that we have such Intimacies means she’ll have an easier time convincing us not to stray from the path if something tries to Persuade us in the future.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        Personally, I disagree that having Intimacies in common is all that bad for player characters; especially since a) you know what they are; and b) they’re harder to erode than normal Intimacies.

        For example, in the game I’m running, the other Eclipse in the group, Robin, has Flowing Mind Prana, and has elected to give Knight Raiton and Invisible Horse Princess some XP. She selected a Principle of “I want to make the world a better place.” Her knowing that we have such Intimacies means she’ll have an easier time convincing us not to stray from the path if something tries to Persuade us in the future.
        Right, but I think the problem here, as Epitome notes, is that if you want to teach someone A Charm, you would have to either immediately make that a Defining Intimacy or scramble up 1-2 other Intimacies from ones you already have and Do want to transfer. If you only have like, 7 Intimacies (Not unreasonably small), it won't be long before you can't teach people for fear of making them fall in love with your spouse. That doesn't seem, y'know, intended.

        Edit: Yes, the charm does say the Solar chooses which Intimacy is conferred, what I'm saying is that, RAW, there's no opting out on the Solar's side, and intimacies are transferred quite quickly.
        Last edited by Maseiken; 05-23-2019, 10:03 PM.

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        • #5
          Experience point transferring strikes me as a pretty damn powerful thing for players to do in support of one another, so I feel as though it's something that ought to have some limitations in any case. The idea that it can only be done so through highly intense training that powerfully conveys the teacher's values both strikes me as a reasonably soft limit, and something that reinforces the characterisation of Solar teaching.

          In the absence of it, what personality does Flowing Mind Prana have besides being something to optimise distribution of XP, and how is that not overpowered?

          The idea of overexposure to such training rather significantly shaping the personality of both teacher and student seems to me to be both a prime opportunity to play out the drama of it and maybe an indication that something needs to be reined in a little (even in character).


          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
          Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
          https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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          • #6
            I've had a small campaign (about 7 sessions) where i could play a Twilight supernal lore and went to the "teacher" thing.

            It was really awesome and fun. Preparing our group members to confront the twisting power of the Wyld during the exode of our people in the North East by making them meditate over a concoction of Wyld mushrooms to give them hallucinations, during which they were guided by the voice of my character to endure this challenge, for the purpose of raising their integrity was a really fun moment. Furthermore it was a good explanation for their intimacies of trust in me. What made the teacher a really good experience was to find challenges to teach them stuff.

            We didn't apply a rule where it was necessary to use all the experience used to necessary form intimacies, but we didn't accept either to use it as a "get-free points without story" trick, which I think was fair.

            I believe the best moment was when i tried to stop the Dawn from killing someone, and failed in doing so because I gave him the strength of will to resist my persuasion.

            I'll give some statistics details tonight of how much exp I invested, gave to the other characters, and got back at the end of our small campaign

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              Experience point transferring strikes me as a pretty damn powerful thing for players to do in support of one another, so I feel as though it's something that ought to have some limitations in any case. The idea that it can only be done so through highly intense training that powerfully conveys the teacher's values both strikes me as a reasonably soft limit, and something that reinforces the characterisation of Solar teaching.

              In the absence of it, what personality does Flowing Mind Prana have besides being something to optimise distribution of XP, and how is that not overpowered?

              The idea of overexposure to such training rather significantly shaping the personality of both teacher and student seems to me to be both a prime opportunity to play out the drama of it and maybe an indication that something needs to be reined in a little (even in character).
              I understand that the requirement is there to prevent abuse of the Charm, I just feel it punishes legitimate use of the Charm as well. I can't really think of another Charm tree that has such heavy roleplay requirements built-in in order to be allowed to use it. As an example, imagine if Solars had some overtuned Charms (well, more overtuned than usual ), but that those Charms required you to roll Limit each time you use them so things stay balanced. Would you consider that to be good design?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                Personally, I disagree that having Intimacies in common is all that bad for player characters; especially since a) you know what they are; and b) they’re harder to erode than normal Intimacies.

                For example, in the game I’m running, the other Eclipse in the group, Robin, has Flowing Mind Prana, and has elected to give Knight Raiton and Invisible Horse Princess some XP. She selected a Principle of “I want to make the world a better place.” Her knowing that we have such Intimacies means she’ll have an easier time convincing us not to stray from the path if something tries to Persuade us in the future.
                I agree that there are mechanical advantages in being able to manipulate other Circle members with teaching Charms. It's just sometimes their character concept is built around being chaotic or not fully trustworthy, so forcing them to become good people sort of destroys the character the other player had in mind.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
                  Personally, I'd choose to read the line in Flowing Mind Prana that "The Solar may choose which Intimacy is conferred" as including the possibility of no Intimacy being transferred. I don't think the Intimacy-transfer effect of FMP is supposed to be a limitation on the charm. Instead, I think it's pretty much the point of the charm, and limiting a Solar teacher to only being able to train characters if they have a whole bunch of intimacies to confer seems wrong to me.
                  My group has been doing something similar. Intimacies aren't optional but we greatly reduce the scaling effect, so the main target gets 2-3 Intimacies and other targets get 1-2, rather than say 6 for the main target and 3 for other targets. We find this is more than enough to make the teaching session have an impact on the story rather than just being free exp.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Epitome View Post

                    I agree that there are mechanical advantages in being able to manipulate other Circle members with teaching Charms. It's just sometimes their character concept is built around being chaotic or not fully trustworthy, so forcing them to become good people sort of destroys the character the other player had in mind.
                    I know this might seems like an unfair suggestion, and of course players should discuss it to try to find an agreement for their characters, but to me the players can chose wether or not to accept a teaching based on this presumption, and find a logical in-game explanation for their characters refusing the teaching ("Ol' me won't be acceptin' any sorta tricks from a good ol' nasty sorcerer like yourself !")

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Epitome View Post

                      I understand that the requirement is there to prevent abuse of the Charm
                      I view that as a tertiary concern behind giving it some personality and consequence.

                      Originally posted by Epitome
                      I just feel it punishes legitimate use of the Charm as well.
                      I question the legitimacy. And the punishment, for that matter.

                      Originally posted by Epitome
                      I can't really think of another Charm tree that has such heavy roleplay requirements built-in in order to be allowed to use it.
                      Socialize persona Charms, perhaps.

                      Comparing to other Abilities doesn't really matter if those aren't dealing with the same subjects. And I'd say that Lore in particular needed a few more hooks to make it a bit more engaging; it previously struck me as too much of a utilitarian cascade.

                      Actually, I want to push the significance of Charm abuse down another level, beneath the weight of a Charm that models the mythic, literary and real life
                      emotional and social consequences of being instructed by a charismatic teacher. You're not putting Solar Essence behind just teaching them poetry well enough to get through their exams, those boys are gonna be standing on their desks for you.

                      Originally posted by Epitome
                      As an example, imagine if Solars had some overtuned Charms (well, more overtuned than usual ), but that those Charms required you to roll Limit each time you use them so things stay balanced. Would you consider that to be good design?
                      That would depend on absolutely everything about what the Charm does.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        Socialize persona Charms, perhaps.
                        [raises hand]

                        I'll field this one, if you don't mind.

                        When I built Knight Raiton, I had to simultaneously decide what his Intimacies were, and the Intimacies of his "rich playboy" persona, Carter Brus. Knight Raiton's dedication to his crusade for justice was counterbalanced by Carter's protectiveness for his lavish lifestyle; the only Intimacy they shared at first was their respect for his manservant Avery.

                        Even after character creation, the two developed very differently. Sometimes another player character would earn my caped crusader's respect while stopping a string of murders, but by the time he retired back to his gilded wagon to talk finances in his silks, the importance of their deeds was forgotten.

                        Amusingly enough, Vance actually answered a question as regards using Lore Charms on a Solar with personas; XP donated by Flowing Mind Prana still counts toward your total for the purpose of Hundred-Faced Stranger, so our other Eclipse effectively inspired both of them to learn.

                        It's been hella fun, though, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
                        Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 05-24-2019, 11:44 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          I view that as a tertiary concern behind giving it some personality and consequence.



                          I question the legitimacy. And the punishment, for that matter.



                          Socialize persona Charms, perhaps.

                          Comparing to other Abilities doesn't really matter if those aren't dealing with the same subjects. And I'd say that Lore in particular needed a few more hooks to make it a bit more engaging; it previously struck me as too much of a utilitarian cascade.

                          Actually, I want to push the significance of Charm abuse down another level, beneath the weight of a Charm that models the mythic, literary and real life
                          emotional and social consequences of being instructed by a charismatic teacher. You're not putting Solar Essence behind just teaching them poetry well enough to get through their exams, those boys are gonna be standing on their desks for you.



                          That would depend on absolutely everything about what the Charm does.
                          Fair, I wasn't there for 2e but I can understand wanting teaching charms to be more than stat boosters. I guess I don't really value the effect of granting free exp to other players, which is why I balk at the heavy roleplay requirement.

                          I think what I'd really want is flavorful teaching Charms, but not in the form of free exp for other players. More Charms like the ones that let you teach to people incapable of learning or give lessons in secrecy. Then I could just never touch the xp-awarding Charms and be happy with that.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                            I guess I don't really value the effect of granting free exp to other players
                            Because you think it's boring or not very useful?

                            Personally, I was shocked when I saw it, because it can be made very powerful (though it takes a while). You're an XP-generating machine.

                            It's probably not very interesting though. (It's far more realistic than the previous ed's teaching charms, but mechanically and thematically maybe not the best way.)


                            My characters:
                            Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                            Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                            • #15
                              I'm playing the Lore character in Alucard's game and my somewhat brief stint of using Flowing Mind Prana since I've only recently got it was a couple of points I hope help you at least a bit.

                              A) Flowing Mind Prana can only give your* intimacies to the student character until you get the essence 3 charm Legendary Scholar’s Curriculum, then that limitation is gone.

                              B) Believe it or not my group didn't do much RP for FMP, I ended up just using it in the downtime between stories. Just to tell you it doesn't NEED heavy RP. But it certainly makes it more flavorful.

                              C) Flowing Mind Prana flavor comes from the students sharing their beliefs with there teacher as he opens more of the world to them through the lens of their teacher. (Although ending up loving their husband is something up I didn't think about before, but point D and E will share my thoughts on that.)

                              D) Exalted is meant to be a collaborative experience (at least in my group), and you need to make concessions with your fellow players. As an example Robin ,my Linguistic/Lore eclipse, wanted to teach anyone in the circle who wanted to learn, a crazy (and hilarious) assassin night ,Invisible Horse Princess, opted in. So me and her player talked about what we wanted to do, since I didn't want to mess up their character concept but still wanted it to seem like my character was trying to make her less... killy. Ultimately, I'm saying that you need to keep the other players wishes in mind when dishing out intimacies.

                              E) Intimacies are really funny when looked at from the view of another player/character. As an example the way one takes in "I want to make the world a better place" when held by an insane assassin is much different then then a Lore character might expect them to be. They may see the world through your lens but they are still the one looking through it.

                              ----
                              Not sure if this will help or not, but it's my experience with the charm.
                              Last edited by Chronos12; 05-24-2019, 06:03 PM.

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