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Ambush, Join Battle and Initiative

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  • #16
    I don't think so, but I'd be happy to be wrong. I'd have to check, but I'm reading The Realm now, so I'll have to check later.


    My characters:
    Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
    Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
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    • #17
      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      That's stupid.
      Ohhhh good, it's spreading.

      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
      And also generally makes the majority of poisons pretty useless outside combat against Exalts. The chance of even doing 1 point of real damage is fairly unlikely.
      So it's preferable to have a system in which being dosed with frog or snake venom becomes significantly more dangerous out of a fight rather than in one?

      Perhaps it would help to spike their food with more than one dose of poison.

      Sure, realistically, small quantities of animal venom tend to contain enough doses to kill an adult human several times over, but how is that to be handled in a dramatically inclined game system such as this.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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      • #18
        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
        I'm reading The Realm now
        Yeesh, speaking of ambushes.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
          Don’t poisons just do lethal damage outside of combat?
          The DB book specifies that you roll initiative against out-of-combat poison :

          Originally posted by What Fire Has Wrought
          POISON OUTSIDE OF COMBAT

          If a character is exposed to poison that deals Initiative damage outside of combat, the Storyteller should call for him to make a Join Battle roll. This doesn’t represent him suddenly becoming aware of hidden poisoners, but supplies him with a buffer of Initiative for the poison’s damage to wear down before he’s crashed and begins suffering decisive damage from it. If combat begins, perhaps as a result of the victim or his allies finding the hidden assassin, he carries over the result of his initial roll rather than making another Join Battle roll.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

            Ohhhh good, it's spreading.
            Fair.

            Okay, let me rephrase myself. I feel this is a way of handling it that lacks versimillitude. I feel Wits+Awareness is a strange thing to roll against poison, and also that poison is pretty useless outside combat. I'm sure there's a balanced way to cope with this other than your point about making poison far more dangerous out-of-combat than in-combat.

            (Though, tbh, for anyone with a Resistance excellency or charms, the fact that mote-cost isn't such an issue outside combat means that, were poison outside combat to simply do bashing or lethal, it'd end up being... not very dangerous actually.)
            Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 05-24-2019, 10:40 AM.


            My characters:
            Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
            Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
            Avatar by Jen

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            • #21
              For reference, here are the dev rulings about ambushes I based my interpretation on :

              Join Battle makes combatants aware of danger

              Being undetectable doesn't prevent the opponent from sensing danger

              Stalking Wolf Attitude is not an Ambush Charm

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              • #22
                Again I think the rule for poison is to be used with care of the dramatic situation.

                If an assassin uses some sort of combat venom like the frog one, with high combat malus and initiative damage to represent the numbing effect on the victim, then certainly it makes sense to roll initiative at some time because the assassin is going to strike when the moment is right.

                However, if you happen to poison someone by arsenic, in which the interval is counted in days, there is no need for Join Battle. I think it's up to the assassin to know what kind of poison he wants to use, and not react like "What ? How come my shenanigan of using poison that is more deadly in the context of combat assassination is not nearly as effective when I use it for non-combat assassination ? Insufferable !"

                I think it's better to represent most poisons that deals initiative damage as some sort of numbing/distracting/paralysing poisons, that give the assassin an opportunity for the kill, but don't have the potential for lethality otherwise

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                • #23
                  I see your point Epitome, but I think those are all examples that involve the PC getting a turn in the battle.

                  It's interesting to note what he said about Stalking Wolf Attitude. I couldn't see how that'd work with an Ambush, and he's explained that, essentially, it doesn't.


                  My characters:
                  Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                  Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                  Avatar by Jen

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                    Yeesh, speaking of ambushes.
                    Well, I've started a thread to tell people about it.


                    My characters:
                    Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                    Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                    Avatar by Jen

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                    • #25
                      Thank Epitome for the link to the Wolf Stalking Attitude, I'll use it better from now on !

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                        However, if you happen to poison someone by arsenic, in which the interval is counted in days, there is no need for Join Battle.
                        Huh... technically of course you do, but then you've got an Initiatiave that's lasting for, like, five days or something. So if someone poisons you with arsenic, and then 3 days later you get attacked, do you have to keep your old Join Battle? Roll again but minus the initiative from the damage you've taken so far? Yeah, it's a bit weird. I think, especially considering how ineffectual poison is against Exalts in my experience, that I'm inclined to agree with you.


                        My characters:
                        Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                        Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                        Avatar by Jen

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                          I see your point Epitome, but I think those are all examples that involve the PC getting a turn in the battle.
                          I may have misinterpreted the dev's statement, maybe "Once battle is joined" refers to the combatant getting their first turn, rather than rolling join battle.

                          Either way I agree it makes a lot more sense if the combatant remains unaware of danger while ambush is still possible.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

                            Huh... technically of course you do, but then you've got an Initiatiave that's lasting for, like, five days or something. So if someone poisons you with arsenic, and then 3 days later you get attacked, do you have to keep your old Join Battle? Roll again but minus the initiative from the damage you've taken so far? Yeah, it's a bit weird. I think, especially considering how ineffectual poison is against Exalts in my experience, that I'm inclined to agree with you.
                            I think the rule concerinig ignoring the rules when you find them highly counter intuitive exists for a reason. Exalted is so full of rules that we can't expect them all to be good. And rolling wits awareness against slow working poison damage like arsenic is indeed, incredibly stupid. I don't know any GM's personally that would follow that RAW.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

                              Huh... technically of course you do, but then you've got an Initiatiave that's lasting for, like, five days or something. So if someone poisons you with arsenic, and then 3 days later you get attacked, do you have to keep your old Join Battle? Roll again but minus the initiative from the damage you've taken so far? Yeah, it's a bit weird. I think, especially considering how ineffectual poison is against Exalts in my experience, that I'm inclined to agree with you.
                              What?

                              Wizard, the sidebar explicitly says that it's for poisons that deal Initiative damage.

                              Those poisons have intervals that are measured in rounds.

                              If you're dosed with something that will last for days, it will do damage directly to your health track in any event. There's no need to have an Initiative pool for it to attack.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                              https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                              • #30
                                Ah, good to hear, Isator Levi. I see I need to re-read the rules once again (seems I can never read them too often).

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