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  • #91
    Originally posted by Lioness View Post
    An idea I've considered for Nocturnals that I can share now the veil of secrecy around the Getimians has fallen a little. Instead of being entombed in the Loom of Fate, Nox might not actually 'exist' (potentially because he was erased before or during the Primordial War) and be trying to correct that by exalting people who have thwarted destinies.
    While it sounds cool, wouldn't Nox being an erased existence is kinda conceptually similar to the Getimians being existence which should not be? (Of course, that's considering what little I know about the Getimians). Perhaps Nox serving as the possibility of an Incarna which was never created (a "stillborn Incarna", so to speak) would work better? (but again, Getimians were described as stillborn destinies, so... yeah, it is hard to think about the place of Nocturnals and Nox in the setting before we'll get some more concrete information about the Getimians)


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    • #92
      I'm in no hurry to decide anything solid about Nox, he's a voice that some Nocturnals have in their heads that's telling them to fight the power who may or may not have their best interests at heart. Maybe he wants Thulio to cut out this Getimian shit before it destroys the universe? Maybe the Getimian shit was something he helped set into motion because their paradoxes enable his own?

      What really matters is I think that the two exalt types are thematically distinct enough.


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      • #93
        Originally posted by HamSandLich View Post
        The way Heysha saves Lilun in RoTSE is really heartwarming, in part because we see an Exalt doing something heroic that doesn't involve punching. Though I agree with Lioness that Lilun's overall concept is a bit too extreme.
        I personally always thought that she was the proper tax to what would obviously be the focus of the infernals chapter. Mainly we are in with a very nasty group of people who turned people into things. They go to extreme limits at all times and they do not recognize proper propriety. More importantly it's presented in as disgusting in horror flick away as possible not meant to lure you in but in fact meant to gross you out so that that way you realize your character it's either being forced to or is complicit in some sick ass s*** because they get the Rockstar powers. What's more it highlighted kind of something we got a little too comfortable with an exalted mainly massive amount of sexual exploitation that naturally be going on of the young. Even in realm culture there are thousands of lillens that is to say little girls who have been sold into desperate situations to be exploited for whatever winds powerful people can make out of their Wills or their bodies

        I found every attempt in order to Blount apologized ignore make fun of the Developers for her and so on to be an example of audience cowardice. However I can also understand that causing too much disruption in the overall community that getting rid of it is fine but I hope along side of it was the infernos as a whole. Along with the apparent assumption that all they are is a collection of powers and a destiny become super primordials II someone sneezes if they eat a tuna sandwich

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Darmani View Post
          I personally always thought that she was the proper tax to what would obviously be the focus of the infernals chapter. Mainly we are in with a very nasty group of people who turned people into things. They go to extreme limits at all times and they do not recognize proper propriety. More importantly it's presented in as disgusting in horror flick away as possible not meant to lure you in but in fact meant to gross you out so that that way you realize your character it's either being forced to or is complicit in some sick ass s*** because they get the Rockstar powers.
          This also describes a lot of JoJo villains, but they usually manage to express this without the Lillun-ing.

          What's more it highlighted kind of something we got a little too comfortable with an exalted mainly massive amount of sexual exploitation that naturally be going on of the young. Even in realm culture there are thousands of lillens that is to say little girls who have been sold into desperate situations to be exploited for whatever winds powerful people can make out of their Wills or their bodies
          The game would have been better off focusing on the plight of mortals in this context than the exercise in making the Ebon Dragon into a walking cliché among cliches. Also, it's attractive youths in general for most of Creation, including the Realm.

          I found every attempt in order to Blount apologized ignore make fun of the Developers for her and so on to be an example of audience cowardice. However I can also understand that causing too much disruption in the overall community that getting rid of it is fine but I hope along side of it was the infernos as a whole. Along with the apparent assumption that all they are is a collection of powers and a destiny become super primordials II someone sneezes if they eat a tuna sandwich
          Infernals were supposed to be viable player characters. Lillun's treatment was, in this context, tying a splat's neck to an anchor with a short chain and launching it overboard. And there was no one at the helm to catch it in time and maybe rethink what was rather obviously a really bad idea. And that is what it remains; no grand plan, no particular reason for its execution, and nothing desired beyond shocking people who read the book and see the art... for all the time before the first chapter gets removed from that copy of the book to make what's left jive with the chapters after chargen.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Darmani View Post
            I found every attempt in order to Blount apologized ignore make fun of the Developers for her and so on to be an example of audience cowardice.
            I find people not wanting on-screen child abuse in their entertainment an example of the audience not being sociopaths.

            Originally posted by Darmani
            However I can also understand that causing too much disruption in the overall community that getting rid of it is fine but I hope along side of it was the infernos as a whole. Along with the apparent assumption that all they are is a collection of powers and a destiny become super primordials II someone sneezes if they eat a tuna sandwich
            Ah here we go. This has nothing to do with the storytelling merits of Lillun and everything to do with imposing something unpalatable on a splat you obviously dislike. Less vile than advocating people with no intention of depicting child abuse are cowards, but still pretty vile.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Bastet View Post
              I find people not wanting on-screen child abuse in their entertainment an example of the audience not being sociopaths.


              Ah here we go. This has nothing to do with the storytelling merits of Lillun and everything to do with imposing something unpalatable on a splat you obviously dislike. Less vile than advocating people with no intention of depicting child abuse are cowards, but still pretty vile.
              Well ultimately he's been put into Rec Kania desis was a very deliberate attempts to make us realize that the solar exalted weren't overthrown just for being too awesome. We were often reminded that there was institutionalized sex work that had been happening to a lot of people who are destitute and there were many powers that allow you to basically turn people into Meat Puppets. And finally a common aspect of the Demons where that they turned people into things or Commodities from their hope streams and bodies and so far. Any attempt in order to turn the demons into a PC faction was obviously going to make them sympathetic. Lilun is a kind of up imposition much like a Stephen only perspective or SpongeBob will never get his boating license. No matter how cool no matter how vast no matter how sympathetic the demon princess got you needed to be aware this was the faction that you were with and these were the things that they would do. Much like the atrocities of the solars kept on getting blown up as well as the falsity of their virtue or their tendency to easily lie and manipulate as well as the failure of The Godly Patron this needs to be emphasized and I think lilin was a way to do so because she not only emphasize the cruelty of the demon princes but the exalted creation and the Scarlet empress. Note that I extended this also to realm culture

              I can also turn that around where it seems as if everyone's hatred of lilun has very little to do with actual morality so much as wanting to guiltlessly have superpowers.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Darmani View Post
                I can also turn that around where it seems as if everyone's hatred of lilun has very little to do with actual morality so much as wanting to guiltlessly have superpowers.
                Well then I have to retract the part about your stance being less vile.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by nalak42 View Post
                  Hmm I honestly don't recall this Tachi individual, Dreams of the First Age?

                  CoCD1: Blessed Isle.

                  Originally posted by HamSandLich View Post
                  Really minor character, but it appears that Thorns' Puppet King is no more, having been replaced by blind deathknight and "Man in the Iron Mask"-reference Red Iron Rebuke as regent of Thorns in Mask of Winters' stead.
                  Wasn't that puppet king a treacherous vizier or something like that? Concept-wise he could certainly fit as one of the "missed destinies" that get chosen for Gentimians, i guess.


                  Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                  Makes sense. Oversight wasn't popular and why step on the toes of people who want to include Nocturnals?
                  Nox does seem to fill a conceptual space that is awfully close to that of Gentimians, differences in Nocturnals' charmset notwithstanding.
                  Last edited by Baaldam; 06-10-2019, 09:38 AM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                    Wasn't that puppet king a treacherous vizier or something like that? Concept-wise he could certainly fit as one of the "missed destinies" that get chosen for Gentimians, i guess.
                    That was Wisdom Whispered, a different guy in the court. The Puppet King is the Autocrat of Thorns i.e. Red Iron Rebuke's brother.

                    Originally posted by Baaldam
                    Nox does seem to fill a conceptual space that is awfully close to that of Gentimians, differences in Nocturnals' charmset notwithstanding.
                    It's useful to remember how tonally different MoEP: Nocturnals Nox is from the one in MoEP: Sidereals.

                    There were a few less successful attempts to give Nox his own Exalts and Reminiscent Oasis' attempt was the most successful, primarily because the others more followed the source material of Nox being defined by his lust for his sisters and watching everything which generally yielded less interesting revenge-focused exalts. RO basically exonerated his version of Nox by making him a being of constant flux who was unable to really commit to a side in the Primordial War, which is such a specific thing to do with the character that updating the Nox who appeared in print without drawing directly from the fanwork would probably result in a notably different entity.


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                    • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                      That was Wisdom Whispered, a different guy in the court. The Puppet King is the Autocrat of Thorns i.e. Red Iron Rebuke's brother.
                      Wasn't the autocrat per se maade into a ghost?? I admit i'm possibly mixing up stuff due to years since i last read CotD1: Scavenger Lands.


                      Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                      It's useful to remember how tonally different MoEP: Nocturnals Nox is from the one in MoEP: Sidereals.

                      There were a few less successful attempts to give Nox his own Exalts and Reminiscent Oasis' attempt was the most successful, primarily because the others more followed the source material of Nox being defined by his lust for his sisters and watching everything which generally yielded less interesting revenge-focused exalts. RO basically exonerated his version of Nox by making him a being of constant flux who was unable to really commit to a side in the Primordial War, which is such a specific thing to do with the character that updating the Nox who appeared in print without drawing directly from the fanwork would probably result in a notably different entity.
                      That's a factor for certain but then i myself though not deeply familiar with Nocturnals always made a major point of taking Nox in directions beyond "lurking, stalkery brother of the Maidens", because Incarna of Incest & Squick not exactly great exalted material makes.
                      Last edited by Baaldam; 06-10-2019, 04:02 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Baaldam View Post
                        Wasn't the autocrat per se maade into a ghost?? I admit i'm possibly mixing up stuff due to years since i last read CotD1: Scavenger Lands
                        It's wasn't clear what his status was.
                        Originally posted by Compass Scavenger Lands
                        And at the far end, upon a basalt throne too large for him, sits the Autocrat of Thorns, often called the Puppet King. He is a withered gray man with flesh that hangs loosely from his bones and an iron crown sown into his brow. His mouth hangs open, his wispy beard spills onto his chest, and indistinct strands of shadowy black rise from his joints until they fade from view high above. Occasionally, he twitches to life long enough to shut his slack jaw and make a pronouncement with jerking motions of his hand, only to fall into his half-slumbering state once more.
                        This makes him sound like a fucked up Disney animatronic but he's never specifically described as a corpse. I guess to provide the Storyteller options?


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                        • Originally posted by Lioness View Post
                          It's wasn't clear what his status was.
                          This makes him sound like a fucked up Disney animatronic but he's never specifically described as a corpse. I guess to provide the Storyteller options?
                          ......

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                          • On the subject of Nocturnals- I think that one contrast we could draw between Nox and his Chosen and the Getimians and whatever strange force which grants them existence is that the later are impossible beings, while the former are the Chosen of Possibilities. It is a fine difference, but it a strong thematic one: instead of being an existence which should not be, they are the power which sees what could be. Instead of changing the past, they are about creating the future. Instead of enforcing a stillborn fate upon the world, they herald a new future, a new possibility- a potential for a future not dictated by the laws of fate and the will of heaven.

                            It could be a good place to start, IMO- but I assume that any further discussion of Nocturnals and their possible place at 3e should deserve its own thread and shouldn't derail this one. They are not Lunars, after all :P


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                            • IRC, in 2e, the proper Autocrat was killed(and wasn't as decrepit), the Puppet King was some....thing(?) that Mask put on the throne as a mockery of the old royal line.

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                              • Oh right, elsewhere in the chapter it mentions the death of the old Autocrat. I suppose I just assumed the Autocrat and the Aurocrat were the same guy! It certainly adds a lot of horror to The Puppet King, having the former ruler still around but turned into a decrepit figure of mockery and is in keeping with The Mask of Winters' theatrical approach towards the resistance.

                                I think this is a rare moment of me projecting my in-game experiences onto the book because I ran an Exalted game years ago in which the Autocrat's daughter (now a Renegade Abyssal) ended up mercy killing him.

                                I'm normally the one reminding people that you can't always connect your positive/negative game experiences to what's in the books and to not be so quick to give them credit for your storyteller fixing their mistakes and oversights. I'm normally the one reminding people that you can't always connect your positive/negative game experiences to what's in the books and to not be so quick to give them credit for your storyteller fixing their mistakes and oversights.

                                TL;DR I was wrong. The Puppet King wasn't the old Autocrat (Red Iron Rebuke's brother) he's some random mockery figurehead.
                                Last edited by Lioness; 06-11-2019, 07:33 AM.


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