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[MA] [PEACH] Incomparable Magnus Style

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  • [MA] [PEACH] Incomparable Magnus Style

    I have a player in one of my groups who has an especially hard time with the math-heavy Charm system of Exalt and as such is basically overwhelmed by most combat trees. So I decided to try creating a custom Martial Arts for them which has uncomplicated combos and Charm effects while remaining engaging. The end result is the Incomparable Magnus Style, an all-around Martial Arts that focuses on Willpower.

    I'm posting it here both to share it and to receive feedback. I'd like to know what other people think of the style, and feedback on the balance of costs vs benefits is also very welcome.

    Note : Since the goal of the Martial Arts is to be something you can give to any new or less mathy player, I've included provisions to allow it to be used with any weapon or armor, but these can be ignored if you wish the keep the Martial Arts more standard.


    Edit: the latest version of the Martial Arts is here, slightly lower in the thread. the rest of this post contains the original version.


    Here is a Charm Cascade for a quick overview of the Style :
    Charm Cascade

    And here is a google Doc for the full text if you prefer that format :
    Full Text

    And now without further Ado :


    Incomparable Magnus Style


    Incomparable Magnus style takes a person's unshakeable will and weaponizes it to achieve victory. This style values unyielding determination far more than sheer skill. A master of this style wins not because they are the most skillful combatant - rather, they fight with such aplomb that the universe itself recognizes their claim to victory and adjusts itself accordingly.

    The style is unpopular within the Realm – Immaculate Monks see its self-aggrandizing nature as contrary to the immaculate texts, while Sidereal Masters view its hallmarks as transgressions of fate. However, these same philosophical differences make the style popular among sun cults and Getimian orders.



    Incomparable Magnus Weapons: Stylists use Heavy Two-Handed swords and their artifact equivalent, grand daiklaves, wearing down their opponent with slow, deliberate blows. Alternatively, any weapon which is sufficiently showy or legendary may be integrated into the style with practice, including Archery and Thrown weapons. As such, any Exceptional or Artifact weapon may be treated as a weapon of this style regardless of type.

    Armor:Stylists traditionally forego armor. Alternatively, any armor which is sufficiently showy or legendary may be integrated into the style with practice. As such, all Exceptional and Artifact armor is compatible with this style regardless of type.

    Special Restrictions: This style cannot be mixed with other Martial Arts when using alternate weapons.

    Complementary Abilities: Magnus stylists rely on their sheer Willpower to fuel their combat prowess


    Essence 1

    Greatness-Asserting Strike
    Cost:
    5m, 1wp Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 1
    Type:
    Supplemental
    Keywords: Withering-only, Terrestrial
    Duration:Instant
    Prerequisite Charms: None

    Knowing her victory to be inevitable, the stylist attacks with slow and methodical grace. Her strikes are the passing of seasons and the wind that erodes the mountains, slow but inexorable. Supplements a withering attack, granting the stylist (Temporary Willpower) bonus dice and causing her to reroll 6s on the damage roll until they cease to appear. If the user is below 15 initiative, the attack roll also benefits from double 9s.
    Terrestrial: the stylist may not gain more than (Essence) bonus dice.


    Superiority-Demonstrating Blow
    Cost:5m, 1wp Mins: Martial Arts 3,Essence 1
    Type: Supplemental
    Keywords: Decisive-only, Terrestrial
    Duration:Instant
    Prerequisite Charms:None

    The stylist knows the one killing blow that truly matters is the one dealt to the enemy’s will. She puts such elegance and self-assurance into her strike that her quarry cannot help but see the stylist as their superior, weakening their guard against the incoming blow. Supplements a decisive attack, granting the stylist (Temporary Willpower) bonus dice and causing her to gain double 10s on the damage roll. If the user is at 15 initiative or greater, the attack roll also benefits from double 9s.

    Terrestrial: the stylist may not gain more than (Essence) bonus dice.


    Iron-Willed Defense
    Cost: 5m Mins: Martial Arts 3,Essence 1
    Type: Supplemental
    Keywords: Uniform, Terrestrial
    Duration:One Tick
    Prerequisite Charms: None

    Sensing an incoming blow, the stylists steels her resolve, disregarding all distractions and worries to focus fully on defense. Faced with a wall of sheer will, the attacker cannot help but falter a little in their swing. The stylist raises her Parry and Evasion by (Temporary Willpower/2, rounded up) and the attacker loses 1 success on their attack roll for every 1 in the roll

    Terrestrial: the stylist may not gain more than (Essence) parry and evasion.


    Essence 2

    Incomparable Magnus Form
    Cost:10m Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 2
    Type: Simple
    Keywords: Uniform
    Duration:One Scene
    Prerequisite Charms:Greatness-Asserting Strike, Superiority-Demonstrating Blow, Iron-Willed Defense

    Adopting a stance of absolute self-assurance, the stylist imposes upon the world her will to triumph. Her demeanor changes noticeably: where she appeared strong, she now looks truly fearsome. Where she appeared in control, she now has the knowing patience of the gods. If she has an Intimacy of resolve, self-assurance or similar inner strength, she gains attack dice equal to the intimacy’s strength. Whenever the stylist depicts an increase of her anima level in a Stunt, she gains 1 Willpower. When the form is entered reflexively, this effect can be applied retroactively on the current Combat action.

    Special activation rules:When the stylist successfully lands an attack in which she spent 2 or more Willpower through Charms or by spending Willpower normally, she may reflexively enter Incomparable Magnus Form.


    Ego-Saturated Strikes
    Cost:- (1wp) Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 2
    Type: Permanent
    Keywords: Uniform
    Duration:Permanent
    Prerequisite Charms:Incomparable Magnus Form

    Having progressed on the path of the Magnus, the stylist gains a deeper, more personal understanding of the way her will and fury come together as one. This Charm upgrades Greatness-Asserting Strike and Superiority-Demonstrating Blow. When these Charms would provide double 9s on an attack roll, the stylist may pay a 1 Willpower surcharge to increase this benefit to double 8s. Once per Scene, she may increase the benefit to double 7s instead.


    Vindication of the Magnus
    Cost: - Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 2
    Type: Permanent
    Keywords: Dual
    Duration:Permanent
    Prerequisite Charms:Incomparable Magnus Form

    The Incomparable Magnus style changes the stylist to their soul, granting her a greater sense of puissance and purpose. Each time the stylist takes down the mighty with righteous might, she knows in her soul that the universe has been righted and feels true fulfillment. When attacking a non-trivial opponent with Incomparable Magnus style, if the stylist crashes the target with a withering attack or deals 3 or more damage with a decisive attack, she may regain 1 point of Temporary Willpower she spent on the attack. Additionally, upon winning a battle, the next full night’s sleep restores 2 points of Temporary Willpower to the stylist instead of 1.


    Impregnable Fortress of Self
    Cost:- (1wp) Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 2
    Type: Permanent
    Keywords: Uniform
    Duration:Permanent
    Prerequisite Charms:Incomparable Magnus Form

    Having defended herself with the style countless times, the stylist has developed an intimate knowledge of how to best steel her resolve against harm. This Charm upgrades Iron-Willed Defense, allowing it to increase your Parry and Evasion by your full (Temporary Willpower) instead of only a portion of it. This increase is still restricted by Excellency limits and by the Terrestrial limitation of the base Charm. Once per Scene, the stylist may pay a 1 Willpower surcharge to make the increase non-Charm. In this case, the non-Charm Parry and Evasion cannot exceed your Excellency limit, but does not count towards it.


    Essence 3

    Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce
    Cost:10m, all wp (min 1) Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 3
    Type: Simple
    Keywords: Decisive-only, Terrestrial, Mastery
    Duration:Instant
    Prerequisite Charms:Ego-Saturated Strikes

    It is the fate of the stylist to emerge victorious and the fate of her enemies to fall. Knowing this, it becomes obvious to the stylist that the battle underway is but a formality, one she need not subject herself to. Channeling all her determination into one final attack, she forces the universe itself to carry the battle to its natural conclusion. Her attack is not one attack, but every attack from now until the battle’s end, overwhelming her opponent with countless lethal blows. This a decisive attack which requires 20 or more initiative. The stylist pays all her Temporary Willpower (minimum 1) and increases the raw damage of the attack by 2 for every point paid.

    Terrestrial: Grants 1 raw damage per point of Temporary Willpower spent.

    Mastery: Threshold successes on the attack roll are added to the raw damage of the attack, up to the total amount of Temporary Willpower spent


    Tapping the Fount of Greatness
    Cost:- (5m) Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 3
    Type: Permanent
    Keywords: Terrestrial
    Duration:Instant
    Prerequisite Charms:Vindication of the Magnus

    Effort is not truly effort if merely enforces the natural order of things. From every great exertion of the stylist, a new flame of determination is kindled to life. Every time the stylist spends 2 or more willpower on a single attack or defense with this style, she regains 1 willpower after the action. Once per Scene, she may pay 5 motes to regain all the willpower spent on the action instead of a single point. Willpower generated by this Charm can exceed her Permanent rating.

    Terrestrial: The once per Scene effect generates 1 point of Temporary Willpower for every 2 points spent


    Incomparable Tenacity
    Cost:10m, all wp (min 1) Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 3
    Type: Reflexive
    Keywords: Uniform, Terrestrial, Mastery
    Duration:One Tick
    Prerequisite Charms:Impregnable Fortress of Self

    Even the universe gets it wrong sometimes. Most would call these events tragedies or misfortunes, but the stylist knows them for the shoddy half-hearted works that they are and sets the world straight. Focusing all her will into a flawless defensive posture, her unassailable determination in the face of danger forces the universe to realize her enemy is not supposed to win, rewriting a deadly strike into a glancing blow. The stylist pays all her Temporary Willpower (minimum 1) and reduces the raw damage of the attack by 2 for every point paid.

    Terrestrial: Reduces the raw damage of the attack by 1 per point of Temporary Willpower spent.

    Mastery: Can reduce automatic damage.


    Essence 4

    Will Beyond Reality
    Cost:5m Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 4
    Type: Reflexive
    Keywords: Mastery
    Duration:One Scene
    Prerequisite Charms:Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce, Tapping the Fount of Greatness, Incomparable Tenacity

    Having mastered the way of the Magnus, the stylist unlocks the Martial Art’s secret technique which taps into her very soul. As she unmakes the barriers which keep her will in balance, her determination begins feeding upon itself in an infinite loop, emanating pulses of reality shaping light in time with her movements. For One Scene, all Willpower gains from Charms and Stunts of this style are doubled. If this Charm is activated on the stylist’s first turn, she may immediately reset her Willpower to its Permanent Rating (this effect is not doubled). This Charm is usable once per Story only.

    Mastery: Whilethis Charm is active, there are no longer any limits to how much Temporary Willpower the stylist may accumulate. Willpower above 10 is lost when the Charm ends.
    Last edited by Epitome; 06-05-2019, 08:01 PM.

  • #2
    Sounds fun, shouldn't Iron-Willed Defense (essence 1) cost 1 WP and be limited to (essence/2) for terrestrial for consistency though ?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Chausse View Post
      Sounds fun, shouldn't Iron-Willed Defense (essence 1) cost 1 WP and be limited to (essence/2) for terrestrial for consistency though ?
      That's how I designed it originally, but I was afraid the Charm wouldn't be worth its cost so I ended up easing the cost and terrestrial limitation. Might put it back that way if it turns out it doesn't need the boost.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is creative and cool, thank you for sharing it.

        Unfortunately I need to apologise, as I don't think my assessment is one you'll be happy to hear - you've clearly put a lot of effort into the syle already, and I'm going to suggest some significant revisions. Everything I say is intended as constructive advice based on my own judgement and limited experience, so you're free to disregard it of course.

        I feel that a martial art in Exalted needs to have weapon and armor restrictions for it to really be a cohesive *style*, so I would suggest tailoring some of the descriptions to fit whatever sort of build your player is going for, which would also allow you to make the descriptions more specific and add more thematic flourishes. If the player doesn't have anything planned build-wise then the style can also help make some decisions for them. If the style works with any weapon and in any armour then I don't feel it's appropriate as a martial arts style, that's more like a willpower version of an ability's charm tree.

        As for the charms themselves, some of these effects are really interesting and cool, and the tree definitely does what you set out for it to achieve, giving a focused and powerful set of charms, however I think you need to tone the power down a bit - the willpower costs aren't effective limitations when the charms also allow so much willpower gain, and the mote costs are low if we assume a 10 willpower solar (which we should, as the style is about having immense willpower, so not maxing outr your wilpower would be both a bad idea and a bad representation of an Incomparable Magnus stylist). The charms also synergise with terrifying potency, meaning that the style is much greater than the sum of it's parts. Some of the charms aren't overpowered in a vacuum but become so thanks to the support of others in the tree.

        This style is mechanically much more powerful than most of the martial arts styles I'm familiar with, all of which stop at Essence 3 charms and which are not so broadly powerful. This is compounded by the lack of weapon and armor restrictions, which mean it can also combine freely with other styles, using both Incomparable Magnus Style charms and charms from other styles simultaneously. you could, for example, combine this syle with Single Point with no restrictions.

        The power level may not be a problem if the player isn't optimising their build and combat tactics, but in my admittedly limited experience I would expect a character with this style and the obvious 10 Permanent Willpower rating to dominate in combat, even with limited optimisation, as the simplicity of these charms alos makes their power very easy to effectively apply.

        A specific issue to consider is the limit on charm dice - you can't add more than (Attribute + Ability) charm dice, so how does this interact with Will Beyond Reality's allowance of Willpower over 10? Low level charms like Greatness-Asserting Strike also have the potential to become game-breaking if they are used with Will Beyond Reality active, even if they can't add more than (Attribute + Ability) dice, as that's effectively a free full excellency for half the price, in addition to a large number of other benefits.

        Iron-Willed Defence is especially terrifying, as assuming dice limits apply, that will be +5 Defence for 5m, with the added benefit of preying on 1s, all for 5m - as an Essence 1 charm.

        Incomparable Magnus Form makes this style turn truly monstrous however. While in this form she can combo with Peony Blossom Technique or other anima discharging powers to gain a willpower every single turn, before stunt wp bonuses (two with Will Beyond Reality active), which combines with the fact that the low level charms all cost a perfect 5m to mean she isn't even wasting any motes.

        Vindication then adds 1 (2 with WBR) more point of wp every time a foe is crashed or injured.

        As written, Impregnable Fortress of Self doesn't seem to do anything except for the special 1/scene activation, as unless the player has failed to raise her willpower rating, 10/2 = 5 means that she's already at the limit for charm bonuses to a static value. The 1/scene version is outright monstrous too, as it allows you to easily hit defence 17, a number that's near impossible to hit on a decisive attack and renders you effectively invulnerable - a foe could have 100 initiative ready to blow you out of the water, and this charm plus a full excellency would make it all go to waste.

        Incomparable Coup-de-Grace has a very nice effect - cashing in your banked willpower to try to settle the battle - this is the sort of effect that can help balance a style all about building up massive wp for massive bonuses, however while I think the effect is strong, I don't think it's worth using at a cost of all your willpower, especially when you consider that resetting to base initiative is the most dangerous moment of a fight, and the wp loss means she also loses her charm based defences too. The stylist is better off retaining her 10 willpower, which she can maintain indefinitely, and using the 5m essence 1 charms to build up more initiative for a regular decisive attack.

        Tapping the Font of Greatness makes activating the style form essectively free, and allows you to gain 1 automatic success on every action and +1 to every static value without decreasing your wp thanks to how fast you can gain it. It also makes Incomparable Coup-de-Grace or Incomparable Tenacity free of their huge wp cost 1/scene if I'm understanding correctly. TtFoG is another force multiplier that, while very very cool mechanically and blessed with good lore, gives too much power to an already very powerful style.

        Incomparable Tenacity also seems very good, but not overpowered (save when used wtih TtFoG), as the better defensive option is to not take the hit at all by spending 1wp for +1 defence and 5m for +5 defence more (automatically raising your anima to gain 1wp), stunting your defence for +1 to +3 and likely coming out of the attack untouched, and gaining willpower overall.

        Finally, Will Beyond Reality depends a lot on how the charm dice limites are considered. If charm limits apply as I think they should then this charm simply means that you physically can't run out of willpower no matter how fast you spend it (a fantastic powerup, but not one that increases the performance of the stylist), while if charm limits aren't applied this charm would be a level of power that nothing in the game could stand up to.

        Apologies for the wall of text, I wrote as I read, and as a result things aren't as organised or well laid out as I'd like.

        As I said before, this is based on my reasoning and my experience with the game, which is not as extensive as some commentors. Ultimately, you may want to simply deploy the style as written and wait and see if it's as overpowering as I think it is, however to avoid player frustration or disappointment (and to avoid seeing a carfully crafted villain explode in a cloud of willpower!) I'd suggest reducing the power and the synergy of the charms at this stage and increasing them later if need be. In addition to reducing/capping some of the bonuses, a key step towards making the style both more dynamic and more balanced would be making some of the more powerful effects drain more willpower (without draining all of it) so that the stylist can't sit at 10wp at all times.

        Whatever you decide to do, congratulations on creating a cool martial arts style, I like it a lot!

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks a lot for the in-depth feedback. Let me see if I can go through it.

          Unfortunately I need to apologise, as I don't think my assessment is one you'll be happy to hear - you've clearly put a lot of effort into the syle already, and I'm going to suggest some significant revisions. Everything I say is intended as constructive advice based on my own judgement and limited experience, so you're free to disregard it of course.
          There is no need to apologize, this is exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping to get by posting the style here, and you make many good points.

          This style is mechanically much more powerful than most of the martial arts styles I'm familiar with, all of which stop at Essence 3 charms and which are not so broadly powerful. This is compounded by the lack of weapon and armor restrictions, which mean it can also combine freely with other styles, using both Incomparable Magnus Style charms and charms from other styles simultaneously. you could, for example, combine this syle with Single Point with no restrictions.
          As mentioned at the end of the style description, this Martial Art can only mix when using the standard weapon, the Heavy Two-Handed Sword. Which is my informal way of making the style not mix with anything, because none of the currently published martial arts can actually use Heavy Two-Handed Swords.

          Incomparable Magnus Form makes this style turn truly monstrous however. While in this form she can combo with Peony Blossom Technique or other anima discharging powers to gain a willpower every single turn, before stunt wp bonuses (two with Will Beyond Reality active), which combines with the fact that the low level charms all cost a perfect 5m to mean she isn't even wasting any motes.
          Good catch, I forgot about anima discharging powers. The form is meant to grant 3 willpower per fight max, so I'll add a restriction in the text for that.

          Iron-Willed Defence is especially terrifying, as assuming dice limits apply, that will be +5 Defence for 5m, with the added benefit of preying on 1s, all for 5m - as an Essence 1 charm.
          Good point, I think I may have undervalued the Charm's effectiveness. Between that and Chausse's remark that the Charm would make more sense with a Willpower cost, I think I'll be revising the cost.

          As written, Impregnable Fortress of Self doesn't seem to do anything except for the special 1/scene activation, as unless the player has failed to raise her willpower rating, 10/2 = 5 means that she's already at the limit for charm bonuses to a static value. The 1/scene version is outright monstrous too, as it allows you to easily hit defence 17, a number that's near impossible to hit on a decisive attack and renders you effectively invulnerable - a foe could have 100 initiative ready to blow you out of the water, and this charm plus a full excellency would make it all go to waste.
          Impregnable Fortress of self's base effect is there to let you keep the full defense bonus even after you start pumping willpower into your Charms. It also offsets the fact that the willpower that goes into the Charm's cost does not provide defensive benefits meaning i.e. that without this effect the 1/scene effect could never reach +5 since you could never have >8 wp to power it.

          The 1/scene version is meant to be a "soft" perfect dodge/parry hence the ridiculous DV. It's 1/scene so the foe with 100 ini just has to wait 1 turn and then they can kill you with 97 ini. That said maxing both parry and evasion is probably too much, so I think I'll change the effect to dodge OR parry so it can be bypassed by unblockable or undodgeable.

          Incomparable Coup-de-Grace has a very nice effect - cashing in your banked willpower to try to settle the battle - this is the sort of effect that can help balance a style all about building up massive wp for massive bonuses, however while I think the effect is strong, I don't think it's worth using at a cost of all your willpower, especially when you consider that resetting to base initiative is the most dangerous moment of a fight, and the wp loss means she also loses her charm based defences too. The stylist is better off retaining her 10 willpower, which she can maintain indefinitely, and using the 5m essence 1 charms to build up more initiative for a regular decisive attack.

          Tapping the Font of Greatness makes activating the style form essectively free, and allows you to gain 1 automatic success on every action and +1 to every static value without decreasing your wp thanks to how fast you can gain it. It also makes Incomparable Coup-de-Grace or Incomparable Tenacity free of their huge wp cost 1/scene if I'm understanding correctly. TtFoG is another force multiplier that, while very very cool mechanically and blessed with good lore, gives too much power to an already very powerful style.

          Incomparable Tenacity also seems very good, but not overpowered (save when used wtih TtFoG), as the better defensive option is to not take the hit at all by spending 1wp for +1 defence and 5m for +5 defence more (automatically raising your anima to gain 1wp), stunting your defence for +1 to +3 and likely coming out of the attack untouched, and gaining willpower overall.
          The overarching problem here seems to be that it's too easy for the stylist to maintain high willpower levels, I'll see if I can tweak the costs a bit to fix that.

          A specific issue to consider is the limit on charm dice - you can't add more than (Attribute + Ability) charm dice, so how does this interact with Will Beyond Reality's allowance of Willpower over 10? Low level charms like Greatness-Asserting Strike also have the potential to become game-breaking if they are used with Will Beyond Reality active, even if they can't add more than (Attribute + Ability) dice, as that's effectively a free full excellency for half the price, in addition to a large number of other benefits.

          ...

          Finally, Will Beyond Reality depends a lot on how the charm dice limites are considered. If charm limits apply as I think they should then this charm simply means that you physically can't run out of willpower no matter how fast you spend it (a fantastic powerup, but not one that increases the performance of the stylist), while if charm limits aren't applied this charm would be a level of power that nothing in the game could stand up to.
          The idea for Will Beyond Reality is really just to remove your costs and let your 2 big willpower dumps scale without limit. I actually hadn't taken into account how it would put the stylist into a permanent free excellency state. I'll see if I can do something about that.

          Well, time to head back to the workshop for a round of tweaks, thanks for the feedback!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
            As mentioned at the end of the style description, this Martial Art can only mix when using the standard weapon, the Heavy Two-Handed Sword. Which is my informal way of making the style not mix with anything, because none of the currently published martial arts can actually use Heavy Two-Handed Swords.
            Ah, I misunderstood that line, but as you say that removes the combo possibilities.

            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
            Good catch, I forgot about anima discharging powers. The form is meant to grant 3 willpower per fight max, so I'll add a restriction in the text for that.
            That's definitely a good change, IMF will still be very powerful (especially in WBR), but combined with other revisions shouldn't be as terrifying.

            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
            Good point, I think I may have undervalued the Charm's effectiveness. Between that and Chausse's remark that the Charm would make more sense with a Willpower cost, I think I'll be revising the cost.
            That sounds logical! If the charm is still very powerful, which I imagine it's likely to be given it's efficiency, perhaps consider also including a small initiative cost (just 1i maybe) to help prevent it being easily spammed and thus also making it perilous - an initiative cost represents the measured pace at which the stylist fights, which sacrifices some momentum in the fight to assure victory long term, and also shows how a crashed stylist doesn't have the luxury of controlling the fight in this way and so, as happens with most potent decisive defences, this charm cannot be used in crash.

            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
            Impregnable Fortress of self's base effect is there to let you keep the full defense bonus even after you start pumping willpower into your Charms. It also offsets the fact that the willpower that goes into the Charm's cost does not provide defensive benefits meaning i.e. that without this effect the 1/scene effect could never reach +5 since you could never have >8 wp to power it.

            The 1/scene version is meant to be a "soft" perfect dodge/parry hence the ridiculous DV. It's 1/scene so the foe with 100 ini just has to wait 1 turn and then they can kill you with 97 ini. That said maxing both parry and evasion is probably too much, so I think I'll change the effect to dodge OR parry so it can be bypassed by unblockable or undodgeable.
            That makes a great deal of sense actually, I'm convinced now that you don't need to change this charm at all if other areas are getting toned down a little. Making the defences dodge or parry but not both is a step that would work well if it does turn out to need further limiting however!

            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
            The overarching problem here seems to be that it's too easy for the stylist to maintain high willpower levels, I'll see if I can tweak the costs a bit to fix that.
            I think that's a perfect summary of the core power issue - although as we discussed, there are a few other areas worth adjusting.

            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
            The idea for Will Beyond Reality is really just to remove your costs and let your 2 big willpower dumps scale without limit. I actually hadn't taken into account how it would put the stylist into a permanent free excellency state. I'll see if I can do something about that.

            Well, time to head back to the workshop for a round of tweaks, thanks for the feedback!
            I'm very glad it was helpful, and I'd be happy - and interested - to take a look at the results when you have some!
            Last edited by 99wattr89; 06-02-2019, 07:22 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              After some changes version 2 of the Martial Arts is ready! The goal of this update was to rein in the explosive potential of the style so it doesn't become broken in a skilled player's hands. In short many Charms have been made less efficient, and then to compensate for this the main defensive Charm has been reworked, Terrestrial limitations have been reduced and the capstone is now usable more often.

              Again all feedback is welcome and much appreciated!


              Here is a Change Log in Charm Cascade format for people who want to see exactly what changed :

              Change Log


              And Here are the Charm Cascade and Google doc for the new version of the style :

              Charm Cascade

              Full Text


              Incomparable Magnus Style


              Incomparable Magnus style takes a person's unshakeable will and weaponizes it to achieve victory. This style values unyielding determination far more than sheer skill. A master of this style wins not because they are the most skillful combatant - rather, they fight with such aplomb that the universe itself recognizes their claim to victory and adjusts itself accordingly.

              The style is unpopular within the Realm – Immaculate Monks see its self-aggrandizing nature as contrary to the immaculate texts, while Sidereal Masters view its hallmarks as transgressions of fate. However, these same philosophical differences make the style popular among sun cults and Getimian orders.



              Incomparable Magnus Weapons: Stylists use Heavy Two-Handed swords and their artifact equivalent, grand daiklaves, wearing down their opponent with slow, deliberate blows. Alternatively, any weapon which is sufficiently showy or legendary may be integrated into the style with practice, including Archery and Thrown weapons. As such, any Exceptional or Artifact weapon may be treated as a weapon of this style regardless of type.

              Armor:Stylists traditionally forego armor. Alternatively, any armor which is sufficiently showy or legendary may be integrated into the style with practice. As such, all Exceptional and Artifact armor is compatible with this style regardless of type.

              Special Restrictions: This style cannot be mixed with other Martial Arts when using alternate weapons.

              Complementary Abilities: Magnus stylists rely on their sheer Willpower to fuel their combat prowess



              Essence 1

              Greatness-Asserting Strike
              Cost:
              6m, 1wp Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 1
              Type:
              Supplemental
              Keywords: Withering-only, Terrestrial
              Duration: Instant
              Prerequisite Charms: None

              Knowing her victory to be inevitable, the stylist attacks with slow and methodical grace. Her strikes are the passing of seasons and the wind that erodes the mountains, slow but inexorable. Supplements a withering attack, granting the stylist (lower of Temporary Willpower and 5) bonus dice and causing her to reroll 6s on the damage roll until they cease to appear. If the stylist is below 15 initiative, the attack roll also benefits from double 9s.
              Terrestrial: the stylist may not gain more than 3 bonus dice.


              Superiority-Demonstrating Blow
              Cost: 6m, 1wp Mins: Martial Arts 3,Essence 1
              Type: Supplemental
              Keywords: Decisive-only, Terrestrial
              Duration: Instant
              Prerequisite Charms: None

              The stylist knows the one killing blow that truly matters is the one dealt to the enemy’s will. She puts such elegance and self-assurance into her strike that her quarry cannot help but see the stylist as their superior, weakening their guard against the incoming blow. Supplements a decisive attack, granting the stylist (lower of Temporary Willpower and 5) bonus dice and causing her to gain double 10s on the damage roll. If the stylist is at 15 initiative or greater, the attack roll also benefits from double 9s.

              Terrestrial: the stylist may not gain more than 3 bonus dice.


              Iron-Willed Defense
              Cost: 7m Mins: Martial Arts 3,Essence 1
              Type: Supplemental
              Keywords: Uniform, Terrestrial
              Duration: One Tick
              Prerequisite Charms: None

              Sensing an incoming blow, the stylists steels her resolve, disregarding all distractions and worries to focus fully on defense. Faced with a wall of sheer will, the attacker cannot help but falter a little in their swing. The stylist raises her Parry by (Temporary Willpower/2, rounded up, max 3) and ignores wound penalties to her Parry. If the stylist is below 15 initiative, the attacker loses 1 success on their attack roll for every 1 in the roll

              Terrestrial: the stylist may not gain more than 2 Parry.



              Essence 2

              Incomparable Magnus Form
              Cost: 10m Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 2
              Type: Simple
              Keywords: Uniform
              Duration: One Scene
              Prerequisite Charms: Greatness-Asserting Strike, Superiority-Demonstrating Blow, Iron-Willed Defense

              Adopting a stance of absolute self-assurance, the stylist imposes upon the world her will to triumph. Her demeanor changes noticeably: where she appeared strong, she now looks truly fearsome. Where she appeared in control, she now has the knowing patience of the gods. If she has an Intimacy of resolve, self-assurance or similar inner strength, she gains attack dice equal to the intimacy’s strength. Whenever the stylist depicts an increase of her anima level in a Stunt, she gains 1 Willpower, up to 3 times per Scene. When the form is entered reflexively, this effect can be applied retroactively on the current Combat action.

              Special activation rules:When the stylist successfully lands an attack in which she spent 2 or more Willpower through Charms or by spending Willpower normally, she may reflexively enter Incomparable Magnus Form.


              Ego-Saturated Strikes
              Cost: 1wp or 2wp Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 2
              Type: Permanent
              Keywords: Uniform
              Duration: Permanent
              Prerequisite Charms: Incomparable Magnus Form

              Having progressed on the path of the Magnus, the stylist gains a deeper, more personal understanding of the way her will and fury come together as one. This Charm upgrades Greatness-Asserting Strike and Superiority-Demonstrating Blow. When these Charms would provide double 9s on an attack roll, the stylist may pay a 1 Willpower surcharge to increase this benefit to double 8s. Once per Scene, she may pay a 2 Willpower surcharge instead to increase the benefit to double 7s.


              Vindication of the Magnus
              Cost: - Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 2
              Type: Permanent
              Keywords: Dual
              Duration: Permanent
              Prerequisite Charms: Incomparable Magnus Form

              The Incomparable Magnus style changes the stylist to their soul, granting her a greater sense of puissance and purpose. Each time the stylist takes down the mighty with righteous might, she knows in her soul that the universe has been righted and feels true fulfillment. When attacking a non-trivial opponent with Incomparable Magnus style, if the stylist crashes the target with a withering attack or deals 3 or more damage with a decisive attack, she gains 1 point of Temporary Willpower. This effect is usable once per target, per Scene. Additionally, upon winning a battle, the next full night’s sleep restores 2 points of Temporary Willpower to the stylist instead of 1.


              Impregnable Fortress of Self
              Cost: 1wp or 2wp Mins: Martial Arts 4,Essence 2
              Type: Permanent
              Keywords: Uniform
              Duration: Permanent
              Prerequisite Charms: Incomparable Magnus Form

              Having defended herself with the style countless times, the stylist has developed an intimate knowledge of how to best steel her resolve against harm. This Charm upgrades Iron-Willed Defense. When the Charm would subtract successes from the attacker's 1s, the stylist may pay a 1 Willpower surcharge to subtract successes from the attacker's 2s as well. Once per Scene, she may pay a 2 Willpower surcharge instead to subtract successes from 1s, 2s and 3s on the attacker's roll.



              Essence 3

              Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce
              Cost: 10m, all wp (min 1) Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 3
              Type: Simple
              Keywords: Decisive-only, Terrestrial, Mastery
              Duration: Instant
              Prerequisite Charms: Ego-Saturated Strikes

              It is the fate of the stylist to emerge victorious and the fate of her enemies to fall. Knowing this, it becomes obvious to the stylist that the battle underway is but a formality, one she need not subject herself to. Channeling all her determination into one final attack, she forces the universe itself to carry the battle to its natural conclusion. Her attack is not one attack, but every attack from now until the battle’s end, overwhelming her opponent with countless lethal blows. This a decisive attack which requires 20 or more initiative. The stylist pays all her Temporary Willpower (minimum 1) and increases the raw damage of the attack by 2 for every point paid.

              Terrestrial: The stylist may not add more damage to the attack than she has Permanent Willpower.

              Mastery: Threshold successes on the attack roll are added to the raw damage of the attack, up to the total amount of Temporary Willpower spent


              Tapping the Fount of Greatness
              Cost: - (7m) Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 3
              Type: Permanent
              Keywords: None
              Duration: Instant
              Prerequisite Charms: Vindication of the Magnus

              Effort is not truly effort if merely enforces the natural order of things. From every great exertion of the stylist, a new flame of determination is kindled to life. Whenever the stylist spends 2 or more willpower on a single attack or defense with this style, she gains 1 Willpower after the action. Once per Scene, she may pay 7 motes to gain the same amount of Willpower she spent on the action instead of a single point.


              Incomparable Tenacity
              Cost: 10m, all wp (min 1) Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 3
              Type: Reflexive
              Keywords: Uniform, Terrestrial, Mastery
              Duration: One Tick
              Prerequisite Charms: Impregnable Fortress of Self

              Even the universe gets it wrong sometimes. Most would call these events tragedies or misfortunes, but the stylist knows them for the shoddy half-hearted works that they are and sets the world straight. Focusing all her will into a flawless defensive posture, her unassailable determination in the face of danger forces the universe to realize her enemy is not supposed to win, rewriting a deadly strike into a glancing blow. The stylist pays all her Temporary Willpower (minimum 1) and reduces the raw damage of the attack by 2 for every point paid.

              Terrestrial: The stylist may not reduce the attack's damage by more than she has Permanent Willpower.

              Mastery: Can reduce automatic damage.


              Essence 4

              Will Beyond Reality
              Cost: 10m, 10wp Mins: Martial Arts 5,Essence 4
              Type: Supplemental
              Keywords: Mastery
              Duration: One Scene
              Prerequisite Charms: Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce, Tapping the Fount of Greatness, Incomparable Tenacity

              Having mastered the way of the Magnus, the stylist unlocks the Martial Art’s secret technique which taps into her very soul. As she unmakes the barriers which keep her will in balance, her determination begins feeding upon itself in an infinite loop, emanating pulses of reality shaping light in time with her movements. This Charm supplements a Join Battle roll, causing the stylist to enter a Scene-long trance which doubles all Willpower gains from Charms and Stunts of this Style. The effect ends prematurely if the stylist becomes crashed. Once per Story, the stylist may waive this Charm's Willpower cost entirely.

              Mastery: While this Charm is active, the stylist's Temporary Willpower is no longer limited by her Permanent Rating or the hard limit of 10. Willpower above 10 is lost when the Charm ends.
              Last edited by Epitome; 06-05-2019, 08:01 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Good to see that your project is nearing completion! Apologies for not responding sooner.

                Having a look through your excellent changelog, I love the move to rewarding wp over 5 without needing to stay at or near 10.

                One important question this raises for me is what 1wp is really worth. If you spend it to add 1A on an attack roll then you could say it's worth 2m as it gives the same average benefit as an excellency for 2 dice (this also compares with +1 defence for 2m). This overlooks the non-charm nature of the 1A however, and so I'd say that 1wp can be relatively safely valued at at least 3m. It's also worth noting that this use of wp is generally an act if deperation, and isn't necessarily cost effective.

                There's also the consideration that Spirit-Maintaining Maneuver grants the ability to pay 5m in place of 1wp to resist social influence - so that suggests 1wp may actually be comparable to 5m, yet Incalculable Flowing Mind gives 3wp for 7m (once per story my player tells me, which is another spanner in the comparative works). Then there's Unstoppable Magnus Approach, which lets you reflexively gain 1wp for a staggering 5m 10i.

                You'd need to get input from a more experienced player to really sift through all this, but I think it's realtively safe to say that 1wp is seen as being comparable to 5m. Given that this style makes it easier to gain and lose wp, you could argue that it devalues wp somewhat, but I think that's a dangerous path to go down, as the other charms the stylist uses will still be balanced around the developer expectations for wp value.

                With that in mind, I'd say that some of the costs may need another look, as halving the effectiveness of many of the charms means that their costs are less competative with other charms or excellencies. I hope that's not a result of my pushing too hard for scaling things back!

                G-A Strike's effect looks good with the limiting of the bonus to 5, but it's now actually relatively expensive I think. An excellency for would give 6 dice for 6m, or an Excellent Strike for 3m and then 6m of excellency would give effectively 5 dice, plus reroll 1s, where as G-AS gives 5 dice and reroll 6s (which is very slightly weaker than reroll 1s) for 6m and 1wp, with the condition wp needs to be at 6+ to get the full effect. I think the effects of G-AS are good, it's just too expensive.

                I'd suggest that as you want charms in this tree to make wp rise and fall dynamically, that you keep the wp cost, but pivot the essence 1 charms towards a low mote cost for it's charms so that you can preserve the high value of wp and still keep wp values dynamic for the stylist without making the charms overpriced, giving the style a niche as a mote-efficient way of fighting. Perhaps for G-AS 2m 1wp would be reasonable? If 1wp was 5m (if if if if! If you can get more information here it would be a great help) then that would be an equivalent of 7m, giving 5 dice and the nice reroll effect (and double 9s) instead of a basic excellency for 5 dice for 5m, allowing it to be expensive but fill the niche of being low in mote costs, which of course plays to the stylist's strength. I think this would make the charm a strategic choice since wp is so important a resource.

                S-DB I also think has become quite expensive as a result of that change, but moreso I-WD, which, limited to 3, is giving the equivalent of a 6m excellency (plus preying on 1s) for 7m 1wp. I would very tentatively suggest pricing S-DB at 4m 1wp, and I-WD at 3m 1wp.

                I really like what you've done with the Essence 2 charms, but I'm still wary of how much wp they can generate. Hopefully actual play - or a more expert eye - can show whether they need any further adjustment.

                IFoS is interesting, and I think quite powerful. I've never seen a charm prey on 2s and 3s, but as a 1/scene effect it should be fine - and 2wp is a high price after all!

                I'm not certain what the costs for ICdG are, as they're different in the changelog and the main text here, but I'd say that paying all wp at a rate of 1wp for 2 damage dice on a decisive attack is a trade I wouldn't want to make. It also can't combo with S-DB, due to costing all wp, and leaves the user unable to get full use of many of the style's benefits afterwards, as you'll likely be left at 1-2wp. I'm also not sure I would want to use a charm like that if I already had 20 initiative to put into the attack - this seems better for boosting a lower initiative strike. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of free time to look up charms that it might compare to, but take a look at Fire and Stones Strike for a decisive-dce-adder to comapre to. Perhaps drop the intiative requirement, then, rather than costing all wp it could cost 1wp and let you pay 1m per extra damage die you add to a decisive attack, up to (temporary willpower, max 5) bonus damage dice?

                TtFoG is a force multiplier for the style, so it's important to bear that in mind. I would suggest that if you went with my concept of a high wp by low mote cost style, then this would be an interesting place to let the stylist pay back a bit of that - I suggest you keep the charm as it is, but make the stylist pay 2m per wp recovered. Wp is cheap at twice the price, but it cuts down on the infinite stamina issues that such a style otherwise has. You could possibly also add a 1-2m cost to the Essence 2 charms that recover wp.

                For IT I'd say the cost of all wp is very high, with similar synergy problems to ICdG. You could potentially go with a similar cost to the one I suggested for ICdG, 1wp flat then Xm per damage die removed, up to (temporaray wp) dice, but I think that's probably too good given that it's negating points of initiative for the attacker. This needs a bit more research than I can do unfortunately, but if you look over Resistance you should hopefully find something comparable. If you want to be less drastic, maybe just let the user pay whatever number of wp they want rather than all or nothing - that's still a very expensive way to block incoming damage, but probably worth it.

                WBR requires you to have full wp and be making a JB roll - that's a relatively strict requirement - but if you meet it then you should always activate it, to gain an amazing benefit. Thankfully it doesn't also apply to TtFoG wp gains, so I think this is prooooobably fine. It's hard to say without seeing the style in action though - it could even be underpowered given the wp cost to trigger it.

                Apologies I can't give more researched feedback and a fuller analysis, I hope my feedback is at least useful! Overall I think the style looks very good, the E1 charms just need to be a little cheaper, and the E3 active charms a little less punishing.


                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks again for taking the time to review the MA in detail! This is very helpful.

                  Originally posted by 99wattr89 View Post
                  G-A Strike's effect looks good with the limiting of the bonus to 5, but it's now actually relatively expensive I think. An excellency for would give 6 dice for 6m, or an Excellent Strike for 3m and then 6m of excellency would give effectively 5 dice, plus reroll 1s, where as G-AS gives 5 dice and reroll 6s (which is very slightly weaker than reroll 1s) for 6m and 1wp, with the condition wp needs to be at 6+ to get the full effect. I think the effects of G-AS are good, it's just too expensive.

                  I'd suggest that as you want charms in this tree to make wp rise and fall dynamically, that you keep the wp cost, but pivot the essence 1 charms towards a low mote cost for it's charms so that you can preserve the high value of wp and still keep wp values dynamic for the stylist without making the charms overpriced, giving the style a niche as a mote-efficient way of fighting. Perhaps for G-AS 2m 1wp would be reasonable? If 1wp was 5m (if if if if! If you can get more information here it would be a great help) then that would be an equivalent of 7m, giving 5 dice and the nice reroll effect (and double 9s) instead of a basic excellency for 5 dice for 5m, allowing it to be expensive but fill the niche of being low in mote costs, which of course plays to the stylist's strength. I think this would make the charm a strategic choice since wp is so important a resource.

                  S-DB I also think has become quite expensive as a result of that change, but moreso I-WD, which, limited to 3, is giving the equivalent of a 6m excellency (plus preying on 1s) for 7m 1wp. I would very tentatively suggest pricing S-DB at 4m 1wp, and I-WD at 3m 1wp.
                  On the idea of focusing on efficiency:

                  I see the merit in trying to make an efficient martial arts, but that would take a major rework of the style given it's currently at the opposite end of the spectrum. Also thematically I feel "inefficient overkill" is a better match for a Martial Arts that weaponizes hubris.

                  On the high cost of E1 Charms:

                  Those Charms need to cost more motes than they provide Excellency to prevent the infinite free-excellency loop that Version 1 had.

                  The idea behind the new numbers is that the Charm bonus is at-cost (5 dice for 5m, or 3 Parry for 6m). And then for 1m, 1wp you get either [double 9s & reroll 6s on Withering], [double 10s & reroll 6s on Decisive] or [ignore Wound Penalty & curse 1s on Parry], which isn't too expensive.

                  In any case, it's true that the Charms are probably too expensive for lower Essence users, so I'll see if there's something I can tweak there.

                  I'm not certain what the costs for ICdG are, as they're different in the changelog and the main text here, but I'd say that paying all wp at a rate of 1wp for 2 damage dice on a decisive attack is a trade I wouldn't want to make. It also can't combo with S-DB, due to costing all wp, and leaves the user unable to get full use of many of the style's benefits afterwards, as you'll likely be left at 1-2wp.

                  For IT I'd say the cost of all wp is very high, with similar synergy problems to ICdG.
                  Actually the E3 Charms are meant to be usable with the E1 Charms, the E3 Charm will be fueled with whatever wp you have left after using the E1 Charm. I'll see if I can clarify this in the text.

                  WBR requires you to have full wp and be making a JB roll - that's a relatively strict requirement - but if you meet it then you should always activate it, to gain an amazing benefit. Thankfully it doesn't also apply to TtFoG wp gains, so I think this is prooooobably fine. It's hard to say without seeing the style in action though - it could even be underpowered given the wp cost to trigger it.
                  Will Beyond Reality absolutely applies to Tapping the Fount of Greatness, I'll see if I can make that clearer in the descriptions.

                  Now if you take the 2 clarifications above into account, you will find that E3 Charms are anything but underwhelming. I mean, sure it's punishing to lose all your willpower, but given you get the potential to negate 20+ initiative and then immediately after unleash a +40 damage Decisive that not only doubles 7s on the attack but also adds the threshold successes to damage, I'd say that's quite fair.
                  Last edited by Epitome; 06-10-2019, 05:27 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                    Thanks again for taking the time to review the MA in detail! This is very helpful.
                    My pleasure! Apologies for the slightly incoherent post coming here!

                    Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                    On the idea of focusing on efficiency:

                    I see the merit in trying to make an efficient martial arts, but that would take a major rework of the style given it's currently at the opposite end of the spectrum. Also thematically I feel "inefficient overkill" is a better match for a Martial Arts that weaponizes hubris.

                    On the high cost of E1 Charms:

                    Those Charms need to cost more motes than they provide Excellency to prevent the infinite free-excellency loop that Version 1 had.

                    The idea behind the new numbers is that the Charm bonus is at-cost (5 dice for 5m, or 3 Parry for 6m). And then for 1m, 1wp you get either [double 9s & reroll 6s on Withering], [double 10s & reroll 6s on Decisive] or [ignore Wound Penalty & curse 1s on Parry], which isn't too expensive.

                    In any case, it's true that the Charms are probably too expensive for lower Essence users, so I'll see if there's something I can tweak there.
                    That makes a lot of sense - I see where you're coming from more clearly now with the costs!

                    Usually charms give a better return on investment than an excellency however, where as here if your temporary willpower is low that makes them less efficient in terms of motes (5m for 3 dice at temp wp 3 for example), and even at peak performance they're not as mote-efficient as dedicated Melee charms are.

                    I also feel that the 1m 1p effects are good, but that they may be undervaluing willpower a little.

                    To contextualise this thought;
                    My E3 Dawn caste can spend 4m 1wp to use Thunderbolt Attack Prana to double his decisive damage dice, or 1wp to strip 3i automatically from a rushed target with TRA, while with 3a stored he can spend 1m 1wp 3a to trigger Peony Blossom Technique (which can be activated once every few turns if you're burning Essence fast).

                    Essentially, while the E1 charms in the style are certainly not bad, I think that the stylist would get a better return on her investment if she used melee, brawl or another martial art for her basic attack charms, and used this style to generate willpower. (Because of how charm tree mixing works, the wp generating effects of this style apply to charms of any tree by default.)

                    I think a counter to this would be to specify that this style to only generates willpower when the stylist is using the charms from the style. By locking the stylist out of using charms from other abilities/styles should she want to enjoy the wp generation of this style, you can isolate this style's wp costs from those of other charm trees - Magnus Style may treat willpower as a cheaper resource, but any turn you're using the style you're not using your simple action on charms from other trees and still getting the wp boosts. The only pitfall I see here are charm trees that grant reflexive actions at the cost of willpower, however the relatively high cost of Magnus Style charms actually helps a lot in putting the brakes on that kind of thing.

                    If you combine this with an amendment to the costs wherein the stylist only pays motes for the dice she actually adds/defence she actually gains and raise the caps to (attribute + ability), then I think things would be in good order.

                    To clarify that, G-AS would cost 1m 1wp base, plus 1m per die added, up to a maximum of the lower of (temporary willpower or [attribute + ability]). Altenatively you could cute the extra 1m, lowering the mote cost by 1 overall. This adds add flexability to the E1 charms, and lets the stylist avoid situations where she pays 6m 1wp but only adds a couple of dice due ot low wp. (The other E1 charms could take on the same pattern.)

                    Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                    Actually the E3 Charms are meant to be usable with the E1 Charms, the E3 Charm will be fueled with whatever wp you have left after using the E1 Charm. I'll see if I can clarify this in the text.


                    Will Beyond Reality absolutely applies to Tapping the Fount of Greatness, I'll see if I can make that clearer in the descriptions.

                    Now if you take the 2 clarifications above into account, you will find that E3 Charms are anything but underwhelming. I mean, sure it's punishing to lose all your willpower, but given you get the potential to negate 20+ initiative and then immediately after unleash a +40 damage Decisive that not only doubles 7s on the attack but also adds the threshold successes to damage, I'd say that's quite fair.
                    I don't think I've properly understood the series of events there, but I'll read the clarified text on the E3 charms and hopefully then I'll get the idea.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Essentially, while the E1 charms in the style are certainly not bad, I think that the stylist would get a better return on her investment if she used melee, brawl or another martial art for her basic attack charms, and used this style to generate willpower. (Because of how charm tree mixing works, the wp generating effects of this style apply to charms of any tree by default.)

                      I think a counter to this would be to specify that this style to only generates willpower when the stylist is using the charms from the style. By locking the stylist out of using charms from other abilities/styles should she want to enjoy the wp generation of this style, you can isolate this style's wp costs from those of other charm trees - Magnus Style may treat willpower as a cheaper resource, but any turn you're using the style you're not using your simple action on charms from other trees and still getting the wp boosts. The only pitfall I see here are charm trees that grant reflexive actions at the cost of willpower, however the relatively high cost of Magnus Style charms actually helps a lot in putting the brakes on that kind of thing.
                      That is already how it works by default, you can only benefit from the effects of a Martial Arts Charm when you are using that Martial Arts for the action. For example, even though it's not specified in the Charm, you can't use Tiger Style's Crimson Leaping Cat Technique to empower attacks made with the Melee Ability, the Charm can only benefit Tiger Style attacks.

                      That said, the rule isn't obvious, so I'll specify it in the relevant Charms' full text to make things clear.

                      I don't think I've properly understood the series of events there, but I'll read the clarified text on the E3 charms and hopefully then I'll get the idea.
                      My bad, I got carried away, let me clarify. Here is the ideal scenario for the MA :
                      1. Join Battle with the 1/story free version of Will Beyond Reality to double all willpower gains while remaining at 10 willpower
                      2. Use your 1st turn to make a Withering Attack with Greatness-Asserting Strike that takes you to 20 ini and lets you activate your Form reflexively. For simplicity's sake we'll assume your various willpower generating effects cause you to stay even at 10wp at the end of your turn.
                      3. When you are attacked during the 1st Round, let the hit go through without activating Iron-Willed Defense. Then when it lands, use Incomparable Tenacity, spending 10wp to negate up to 10wp x 2 = 20 damage from the attack.
                      4. Immediately use the 1/scene version of Tapping the Fount of Greatness to gain the same amount of willpower you spent but doubled by Will Beyond Reality, so 10wp x 2 = 20 willpower.
                      5. On your 2nd turn, use Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce supplemented by Superiority-Demonstrating Blow's 1/scene version. Again, assume you break even in willpower gained/spent, so you have 20wp to convert into damage for Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce.
                      At this moment, on turn 2, you do a Decisive attack that has the following characteristics :

                      From initiative :
                      • 20 base damage
                      From Superiority-Demonstrating Blow :
                      • double 7s on the attack roll
                      • double 10s and reroll 6s on the damage roll
                      From Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce :
                      • 20wp x 2 = +40 raw damage
                      • Mastery : convert up to (20) threshold successes on the attack roll into raw damage

                      As you have previously said, the style's charms synergise with terrifying potency. This is basically the most extreme synergy you can get out of the Martial Arts.
                      Last edited by Epitome; 06-10-2019, 08:27 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                        That is already how it works by default, you can only benefit from the effects of a Martial Arts Charm when you are using that Martial Arts for the action. For example, even though it's not specified in the Charm, you can't use Tiger Style's Crimson Leaping Cat Technique to empower attacks made with the Melee Ability, the Charm can only benefit Tiger Style attacks.

                        That said, the rule isn't obvious, so I'll specify it in the relevant Charms' full text to make things clear.
                        I actually have to diagree on the rule - it's academic if you're gonig to clarify in the text anyway, but as it's useful to know in general, I believe that the rule you're referring to applies only to supplemental charms and reflexive charms that generate attacks.

                        The charm limitations aren't always very obvious because they're listed in the descriptions of charm types (on pages 252-253), where we're given the rule that supplemental charms and reflexive charms which generate attacks cannot be combined with charms from other charm trees - but these are actually the only limitations I'm aware of. Permanent charms and reflexive charms not generating attacks can apply in combination with charms from any tree when the charm text doesn't specify otherwise.

                        There is also the statement that martial arts charms aren't compatible with Brawl or other combat abilities on page 426, which may be what you're referring to, but I would interpret that 'compatability' as referring to mixing supplemental charms and/or attacks generated by reflexive charms, as explained in the main charms chapter. It doesn't make sense to consider compatability for non-attack reflexive charms or permanent charms as they aren't being used for the same action as whatever other charms you activated on your turn - if the conditions to use these charms are met you can always use them regardless of what charm tree you used to attack with this turn.

                        So as written I believe that all the E2 and E3 charms in the style apply at all times, not only on turns in which the stylist uses one of the E1 charms to attack.

                        Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                        My bad, I got carried away, let me clarify. Here is the ideal scenario for the MA :
                        1. Join Battle with the 1/story free version of Will Beyond Reality to double all willpower gains while remaining at 10 willpower
                        2. Use your 1st turn to make a Withering Attack with Greatness-Asserting Strike that takes you to 20 ini and lets you activate your Form reflexively. For simplicity's sake we'll assume your various willpower generating effects cause you to stay even at 10wp at the end of your turn.
                        3. When you are attacked during the 1st Round, let the hit go through without activating Iron-Willed Defense. Then when it lands, use Incomparable Tenacity, spending 10wp to negate up to 10wp x 2 = 20 damage from the attack.
                        4. Immediately use the 1/scene version of Tapping the Fount of Greatness to gain the same amount of willpower you spent but doubled by Will Beyond Reality, so 10wp x 2 = 20 willpower.
                        5. On your 2nd turn, use Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce supplemented by Superiority-Demonstrating Blow's 1/scene version. Again, assume you break even in willpower gained/spent, so you have 20wp to convert into damage for Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce.

                        At this moment, on turn 2, you do a Decisive attack that has the following characteristics :

                        From initiative :
                        • 20 base damage

                        From Superiority-Demonstrating Blow :
                        • double 7s on the attack roll
                        • double 10s and reroll 6s on the damage roll

                        From Incomparable Coup-de-Grâce :
                        • 20wp x 2 = +40 raw damage
                        • Mastery : convert up to (20) threshold successes on the attack roll into raw damage


                        As you have previously said, the style's charms synergise with terrifying potency. This is basically the most extreme synergy you can get out of the Martial Arts.
                        Oh, apologies, I hadn't understood you were referring to the 1/scene use - or noticed how powerfully it combines with Incomparable Tenacity! As you say, the synergy there is exceptional!

                        Unfortunately, I think that it's too exceptional - this combo is giving you 20 decisive soak for an instant (40 if you've already boosted your willpower to 20), a power so good that it's not normally available to solars at all, then letting you attack for 60-80 initiative, likely more than triple what you've actually accumulated. Add in the double 10s and reroll 6s and this attack can likely one-shot the stongest published creatures in the game (Octavian, Ahlat and co.).

                        I'm not longer confident in how best to balance these two willpower-depleting charms, but I find it hard to imagine the rest of the circle being able to keep up.

                        One thing I am confident saying is that TtFoG shouldn't be able to apply to actions in which you spent 10wp and give it all back. Especially with the WBR combo you've outlined. Being able to gain 20wp for 7m is really not balanced. I'd suggest that that the 1/scene version of TtFoG shouldn't be able to restore more than 2-3 willpower. With WBR active that would still be 4-6, a vast amount of willpower given that your permanent rating is between 5 and 10.

                        Of course this is for your own game first and foremost - and while I would want to drastically reduce the power available, what's most important is that the style works for your players and for you!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 99wattr89 View Post

                          I actually have to diagree on the rule - it's academic if you're gonig to clarify in the text anyway, but as it's useful to know in general, I believe that the rule you're referring to applies only to supplemental charms and reflexive charms that generate attacks.

                          The charm limitations aren't always very obvious because they're listed in the descriptions of charm types (on pages 252-253), where we're given the rule that supplemental charms and reflexive charms which generate attacks cannot be combined with charms from other charm trees - but these are actually the only limitations I'm aware of. Permanent charms and reflexive charms not generating attacks can apply in combination with charms from any tree when the charm text doesn't specify otherwise.

                          There is also the statement that martial arts charms aren't compatible with Brawl or other combat abilities on page 426, which may be what you're referring to, but I would interpret that 'compatability' as referring to mixing supplemental charms and/or attacks generated by reflexive charms, as explained in the main charms chapter. It doesn't make sense to consider compatability for non-attack reflexive charms or permanent charms as they aren't being used for the same action as whatever other charms you activated on your turn - if the conditions to use these charms are met you can always use them regardless of what charm tree you used to attack with this turn.

                          So as written I believe that all the E2 and E3 charms in the style apply at all times, not only on turns in which the stylist uses one of the E1 charms to attack.
                          You may be right, I'll ask the devs to be sure. If it's not an actual rule I will simply add it as a special rule for those Charms.


                          Originally posted by 99wattr89 View Post
                          Oh, apologies, I hadn't understood you were referring to the 1/scene use - or noticed how powerfully it combines with Incomparable Tenacity! As you say, the synergy there is exceptional!

                          Unfortunately, I think that it's too exceptional - this combo is giving you 20 decisive soak for an instant (40 if you've already boosted your willpower to 20), a power so good that it's not normally available to solars at all, then letting you attack for 60-80 initiative, likely more than triple what you've actually accumulated. Add in the double 10s and reroll 6s and this attack can likely one-shot the stongest published creatures in the game (Octavian, Ahlat and co.).

                          I'm not longer confident in how best to balance these two willpower-depleting charms, but I find it hard to imagine the rest of the circle being able to keep up.

                          One thing I am confident saying is that TtFoG shouldn't be able to apply to actions in which you spent 10wp and give it all back. Especially with the WBR combo you've outlined. Being able to gain 20wp for 7m is really not balanced. I'd suggest that that the 1/scene version of TtFoG shouldn't be able to restore more than 2-3 willpower. With WBR active that would still be 4-6, a vast amount of willpower given that your permanent rating is between 5 and 10.

                          Of course this is for your own game first and foremost - and while I would want to drastically reduce the power available, what's most important is that the style works for your players and for you!
                          Good point for the E3 Decisive attack Charm. I'm going for a similar output to what you can achieve with Single Point style, which is itself overtuned, but I hadn't taken into account the initiative-to-damage ratio which I agree is too high here. Perhaps limiting the added damage to no greater than your current initiative would bring the Charm back in line here.

                          For Incomparable Tenacity, it's not as important that it be able to scale infinitely, so I'll see if I can place a maximum on the damage reduction.

                          For TtFoG, I feel getting so much willpower so cheaply can work for this style because it eats through it so quickly that it effectively devalues willpower. That said, there would be potential for abuse when mixing with other Charm trees, so I'll see if I can add some restrictions.

                          Thanks again for your help, this back and forth is really helping me to refine the style and to notice my blind spots in its design. Time to get started on V3...

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Epitome View Post
                            Thanks again for your help, this back and forth is really helping me to refine the style and to notice my blind spots in its design. Time to get started on V3...
                            I'm happy to help, it's been educational for me as well!

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