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  • #31
    Ok, so I usually don't read fiction chapters, but all of the discussion about Eshuvar made me to read the story. The way I see it, it doesn't look like he force himself upon his lover- it is not their first encounter, and from the description there is nothing to suggest otherwise. They know each other, and planned their meeting in advance. Sure, the lover may be young and Eshuvar is older- but Eshuvar is also a Dragon Blooded, so chronicle age and physical age no longer correspond to each other (one of the benefits of being a demigod). In short, yeah, Eshuvar doesn't really screams being "heroic" in that fiction, but it probably was meant to focus more on the limitations and struggles of the Dragon Blooded against their own, complicated society.

    It is the same about the "dead Lunar" issue- while Lunars with that Charm can fake their own death, nothing in the fiction leads us to believe it was the case (unless it showed up in some other fiction- I haven't read them all because, again, I usually don't read fictions). The Lunar is stated as dead, and Wyld Hunts are known to actually defeat Lunars. There is no reason to believe that the Lunar is still alive unless you want to undermine the heroism of the original story due to your own reading. The lover from Eshuvar's story could also be a spy from a rival house manipulating him in order to harm the status of him House. Heck, he could be a Sidereal in disguise which works to keep Eshuvar's ties with his family as thin as possible for the day he'll be called to help fighting the Solar once more or something. After all, the fiction only says that he is a mortal lover of Eshuvar, so it must not be true, and Eshuvar is just too stupid to see the manipulation, right?

    Just my two cents about it *shrugs*


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    • #32
      Say, is semicasual still around?

      Originally posted by semicasual View Post
      It's my hope that when the Dragonblooded book comes around, every story in it will be about them kicking someone else's ass.
      I would be very interested in Semicasual's take on the Dragon-Blooded fiction. Personally, I found it a little toothless but if someone with comparable expectations liked it then I'd be interested in that point of view.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • #33
        General reading on the DB fiction from me.

        I like it?

        Really, I like it. There's not a lot of specifics I feel the need to call out, positive or negative, in the individual stories. They do what they set out to do really well: show us the sig characters and use that to portray how Dragon Blooded live within the Realm and present the reader with different aspects of it. The unifying story of the sig hearth/fellowship/brotherhood is a nice touch. I dunno if there was a more unified writing team for these than the core, but they felt more unified, even beyond the connective story.

        I felt the occasional bits of 'oh right these are the bad guys', such as the threat of beating the kid's slave tutor, or killing villagers for sheltering Anathema, were annoying to place in the fic of a book that's the closest thing to a celebration of the Terrestrials we're likely to get this edition, but eh. 3E's attempts at being anti authoritarian via the Realm are a waaay bigger topic: it's borderline a host of topics at this point.

        Going back to relative presentation though, it's interesting. The fic notably does not try to 'sell us' on any of the signature Dragon Blooded in terms of prowess. There's nothing akin to Novia's fic in core, or some of the stuff later in Lunars. The focus for the sigs is entirely on who they are as people. Not a bad approach in and of itself but worth noting. The exceptions to this are two fics featuring clearly elder Dragon Blooded: Cogen and Mnemon. Those are both good fics, but showing them doing cool things is different to showing the signature characters doing them. The sigs have and are always presented as examples of the default play experience. Elders are NPCs, usually antagonists. The best the sigs get is a post hoc description of their battle with the Solar and Lunar at the start, which... mmm. Not bad, but not even remotely close to what the other two Exalt types we've seen so far got.

        Like... the Elana comic from 2E is what I would've liked to see. But that probably presents too positive a picture of the Realm for 3E. *pouts*

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
          General reading on the DB fiction from me.

          I like it?

          Really, I like it. There's not a lot of specifics I feel the need to call out, positive or negative, in the individual stories. They do what they set out to do really well: show us the sig characters and use that to portray how Dragon Blooded live within the Realm and present the reader with different aspects of it. The unifying story of the sig hearth/fellowship/brotherhood is a nice touch. I dunno if there was a more unified writing team for these than the core, but they felt more unified, even beyond the connective story.

          I felt the occasional bits of 'oh right these are the bad guys', such as the threat of beating the kid's slave tutor, or killing villagers for sheltering Anathema, were annoying to place in the fic of a book that's the closest thing to a celebration of the Terrestrials we're likely to get this edition, but eh. 3E's attempts at being anti authoritarian via the Realm are a waaay bigger topic: it's borderline a host of topics at this point.
          Oh, I don't dislike the Dragon-Blooded fiction. I feel that it does a bad job of showcasing what Dragon-Blooded PCs can do. Compare that to the chapter fiction in the Corebook which I did dislike: much as I don't like a story about Volfer making mortals trivial, that is in scope for a starting Dawn (and the Abysal story likewise shows what it's possible to achieve with necromancy and the power of the Deathlords).

          If I can direct you to page 83, the kid's tutor is almost certainly a patrician, not a slave. Dynasts just love flogging mortals.
          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 06-03-2019, 05:19 PM.


          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
            Oh, I don't dislike the fiction. I just don't feel that it showcases what Dragon-Blooded PCs can do.

            If I can direct you to page 83, the kid's tutor is almost certainly a patrician, not a slave. Dynasts just love flogging mortals.
            Ah, but I did dislike the core fiction, so I felt the distinction was worth making. And hrm. Page 83 aside, slave-tutors were canon for the past editions, and a patrician being flogged is kinda... illegal? Like, they're people. Dynasts aren't supposed to just treat them however. I'm willing to bank on a continuity flub there.

            Do you have Arms? Chapter 5 in that might provide the best example of Terrestrial competence this edition so far. (and involves a certain ridiculous Solar getting his oh-so-very deserved dose of karma. )

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
              I felt the occasional bits of 'oh right these are the bad guys', such as the threat of beating the kid's slave tutor, or killing villagers for sheltering Anathema, were annoying to place in the fic of a book that's the closest thing to a celebration of the Terrestrials we're likely to get this edition, but eh.
              Tbh, I think the best way is for the dynasts to do the decadent aristocratic evil, and the Outcastes and others to be more heroic.* Which is there to some extent, with the Outcaste being the one upset about the villagers being in danger, and the Lookshyan being really honourable. (Lookshy... is not a perfect society by any means. It has its own class system, it murders Solars and Lunars, it does a lot of mercenary work, etc. But it's a lot better than the Realm, and I'd argue probably no worse than most societies in the Age of Sorrows.)

              *In an objective moral sense. Obviously the dynasts might be heroic under their own moral strictures, like bravely fighting Anathema, etc.


              At the end of the day, I didn't find the Dragonblood fiction all that great, but I think mostly because the Dragonblood sigs just didn't appeal to me. Or the Solar sigs, for that matter, I wasn't much interested in the fiction for Novia or Shen or Volfer. I liked the Lunar sigs a bit more, and perhaps that's partly why I liked the Lunar fiction more.


              My characters:
              Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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              • #37
                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                Tbh, I think the best way is for the dynasts to do the decadent aristocratic evil, and the Outcastes and others to be more heroic.* Which is there to some extent, with the Outcaste being the one upset about the villagers being in danger, and the Lookshyan being really honourable. (Lookshy... is not a perfect society by any means. It has its own class system, it murders Solars and Lunars, it does a lot of mercenary work, etc. But it's a lot better than the Realm, and I'd argue probably no worse than most societies in the Age of Sorrows.)

                *In an objective moral sense. Obviously the dynasts might be heroic under their own moral strictures, like bravely fighting Anathema, etc.


                At the end of the day, I didn't find the Dragonblood fiction all that great, but I think mostly because the Dragonblood sigs just didn't appeal to me. Or the Solar sigs, for that matter, I wasn't much interested in the fiction for Novia or Shen or Volfer. I liked the Lunar sigs a bit more, and perhaps that's partly why I liked the Lunar fiction more.
                The Lunar Sigs easily got the best presentation, IMO. You're given a conflict that's typical to the splat and easy to be invested in. There's not a lot of action until right at the end, but you get to see them shapeshifting and being cool as well as establishing them as characters. Assuming Sidereals are presented as a morally complex group, and the Bronze Faction gets less villafication than the Realm, I'm looking forward to the chapter fic for Sids.

                As to the Realm.... Wiz, d'you want to actually have that debate? Cause I'm down to chat if you are: you're pretty cool, I don't think it'd get too bad. But it's off topic here: probably best to take it to PM. Suffice to say I've been writing a pitch for a PbP Dragonblooded game and trying to say 'don't play Dynasts as stupid Camarilla wannabe jerks' has taken me several redrafts in an attempt to be polite about it.

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                • #38
                  I think the dragon-blooded fiction was okay for the most part. It was a bit weird seeing them lose most of a wild hunt to only wound two celestial exalts and need reinforcements to take them down, but hey, you're not playing the Designated Anime Protagonists in this book, kids. As for being evil, well, they are definitely meant to be the antagonists. I found it rather weird how the majority of the iconics in the splat that has to breed are LGBT (and in some of the artwork, the one confirmed to be at least partly heterosexual seems almost a caricature of a butch lesbian) but whatever. It feels like they are going for diversity and exploration of difference between sexuality and gender roles, but it's a bit weird how all there are from the faction most people would see as the evil decadent empire. Oops. Anyway, most of the characters are passable, though to be honest the Realms ones strike me as kind of ... bland. And I rather liked the Realms' 2E lore.

                  Arada's fight looks a lot more even, though it shows that even experienced dragon-blooded face an uphill battle against celestials. Kind of hard to take them as the oppressive powerhouse when the fiction fights show them being decidedly as underdogs who have to triumph through grit and sacrifice, doesn't it? Which reminds me, a band of wandering outcastes acting like proper heroes despite being fairly low on the supernatural totem pole could be interesting. I've long been a sucker for outcastes NOT tied to the Realm.

                  I need to get to the Lunars. So far, I've had my hopes fairly low because of the insistence in the core books that Lunars are really defined by their war against the Realm. To me, this feels off for the exalted of the one Incarna defined by flexibility, adaptation and change. Like, I get why the fossilized elders are doing it and why they'd want to rope in the new blood, but a wide area of projects akin to the Thousand Streams River made more sense for me as a concept, even if I did not like the execution.

                  Anyway, thanks for doing this, JohnDoe244. It's nice to see more people give their honest opinion about the book fiction.
                  Last edited by 4uk4ata; 06-03-2019, 06:17 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Croakamancer
                    As to the Realm.... Wiz, d'you want to actually have that debate? Cause I'm down to chat if you are: you're pretty cool, I don't think it'd get too bad. But it's off topic here: probably best to take it to PM. Suffice to say I've been writing a pitch for a PbP Dragonblooded game and trying to say 'don't play Dynasts as stupid Camarilla wannabe jerks' has taken me several redrafts in an attempt to be polite about it.
                    Hah, thanks.

                    We actually played Dragonblood after we played Vampire: the Masquerade for several years... I imagine that impacted the behaviour of the players in a number of ways, and not in a good way!

                    Though we see them more as British Imperial-era (the players in our group are all English or Welsh) nobles, or like the Chinese court eunuchs and politicians in all those Chinese historical films we got from the ST's Chinese wife (though after I lived there for 3 years I went off those films a bit), than Camarilla monsters or snidely whiplash. It's not wearing black and cackling, it's being raised in an entitled and exploitative culture where the closest to a redeeming feature is paternalism.

                    I think it's in-topic in the sense of how Dragonblood should be presented in the fiction. But I guess it could get into a whole long thing about "is the Realm evil."

                    I guess maybe the issue is that I, and also the writers, think the Realm is supposed to be the bad guys, so the fiction should make it clear that Dynasts, while they may be morally complex or ambiguous (they're not 2nd ed Abyssals! They're a regular normal kind of evil, the kind most humans throughout history suffered under, not necromancers or even nazis), are at the end of the day, the bad guys (or at least, some of the bad guys).
                    And not every Dynast is bad, but as a whole, they're entitled, intolerant, and exploitative.

                    And I think there's a lot of players who don't think the Dynasts are supposed to be the bad guys, and so feel quite aggrieved to see them presented as such.

                    Regardless of who is right (I mean, it's a work of fiction, so there isn't really a right answer), it's a difficult circle to square.

                    Of course, that's not the same point as the fiction making Dragonblood look lame and stupid. I mean, Christopher Colombus, Henry VIII, Bloody Mary, the rulers of the Mexica, the Borgias, Ivan the Terrible, Augustus Caesar, Qin Shi Huang, Oda Nobunaga, Ogedai Khan... these are Dragonblood. They may have done some terrible things, but they weren't ineffectual losers that you could just ignore. So I can see why people would be concerned with that.

                    And of course, with various different groups that the writers are trying to make look cool at the same time, it's quite difficult to make one group look cool without making others look bad. Morke was very keen on making Solars look awesome in the Core Book, which means lots of beating up Dragonblood, but for that to work you first need to establish how good Dragonblood are (maybe by scenes of them easily defeating mortals, bears, giant monsters, demons, ghosts, etc).
                    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 06-03-2019, 06:29 PM.


                    My characters:
                    Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                    Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                      Hah, thanks.

                      We actually played Dragonblood after we played Vampire: the Masquerade for several years... I imagine that impacted the behaviour of the players in a number of ways, and not in a good way!

                      Though we see them more as British Imperial-era (the players in our group are all English or Welsh) nobles, or like the Chinese court eunuchs and politicians in all those Chinese historical films we got from the ST's Chinese wife (though after I lived there for 3 years I went off those films a bit), than Camarilla monsters or snidely whiplash. It's not wearing black and cackling, it's being raised in an entitled and exploitative culture where the closest to a redeeming feature is paternalism.

                      I think it's in-topic in the sense of how Dragonblood should be presented in the fiction. But I guess it could get into a whole long thing about "is the Realm evil."

                      I guess maybe the issue is that I, and also the writers, think the Realm is supposed to be the bad guys, so the fiction should make it clear that Dynasts, while they may be morally complex or ambiguous (they're not 2nd ed Abyssals! They're a regular normal kind of evil, the kind most humans throughout history suffered under, not necromancers or even nazis), are at the end of the day, the bad guys (or at least, some of the bad guys).
                      And not every Dynast is bad, but as a whole, they're entitled, intolerant, and exploitative.

                      And I think there's a lot of players who don't think the Dynasts are supposed to be the bad guys, and so feel quite aggrieved to see them presented as such.

                      Regardless of who is right (I mean, it's a work of fiction, so there isn't really a right answer), it's a difficult circle to square.

                      Of course, that's not the same point as the fiction making Dragonblood look lame and stupid. I mean, Christopher Colombus, Henry VIII, Bloody Mary, the rulers of the Mexica, the Borgias, Ivan the Terrible, Augustus Caesar, Qin Shi Huang, Oda Nobunaga, Ogedai Khan... these are Dragonblood. They may have done some terrible things, but they weren't ineffectual losers that you could just ignore. So I can see why people would be concerned with that.

                      And of course, with various different groups that the writers are trying to make look cool at the same time, it's quite difficult to make one group look cool without making others look bad. Morke was very keen on making Solars look awesome in the Core Book, which means lots of beating up Dragonblood, but for that to work you first need to establish how good Dragonblood are (maybe by scenes of them easily defeating mortals, bears, giant monsters, demons, ghosts, etc).
                      I remember on the ol' What We Know wiki, there was a quote from one of the writers (Stephan I think) that amounted to "if players don't like engaging with VTM style PCs, we've got other splats for them to play". That's why the Cammies remain my touchstone for a quick synopsis of the 3E Realm take

                      And yeah, while I've mostly played Celestials, I found the Great Prophecy and the history of the Usurpation the most engaging thing about the Solar/Realm conflict. I love the moral ambiguity behind the idea that the Solars might be no better than they ended up last time, that even the corrupt and flawed Dynasty could be saved and steered towards a better path. And an excessively evil Realm undercuts the legitimacy of any fears around the Solars: 'how could they be worse than this?!' I can houserule stuff, go 'my table, we play the setting my way', but now I'm dealing with players primarily used to 3E. So it's either long winded rambling about how I choose to play the setting, or I don't run stuff.

                      It's all my penance for being one of five people who liked 4E Forgotten Realms I'm sure.

                      Anyway, presentation. I don't think the 'Realm are the bad guys' factor is the issue here, it's more just the approach in WFHW chapter fic is unfortunate in context. 3E really doesn't give much in the fluff to really show Dragon Blooded awesomeness or the Realm as an active threat. The conflict with the Lunars tends to be framed pretty one sidedly: the Lunars beat the Realm back at least as often as they lose, if not more so. (After all, they halted its expansion this edition) The Dragon Blooded's great empire is in complete and total decline on more or less every front. We could really have used chapter fic showing off how badass Terrestrials can be. They're still overall treated as the Exalts you can beat up pretty safely which just... sucks.

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                      • #41
                        I wouldn't say that the fluff overall portrays them as the Exalts you can beat up pretty safely, if anything their have been a few fixes which makes clear to not mess with a Wyld Hunt, though yes it's not that prominent in WFHW, which tries to portray hunting Anathema to be a challenge with much risk.

                        As for the Realm, yes the Realm isn't really a major threat. It is there but its fracturing, and Lunars are at its heals. This doesn't necessarily have to do with the Realm falling apart just by Lunars though. There is many factors contributing to the Realms fall, most defining would be the Dragon-blooded themselves gearing for Civil War. But with that the whole thing has been thrown into flux.

                        Lunars are framed to be winning yeah, it is to show how much of a threat these near immortal demigods can be against the Worlds Greatest Empire. But still their victory is being won by slow and protracted tactics. This is because the Dynasty is far to much a threat to face head on, we see little to very few Lunars be able to do so with being decimated by the Realms might, thus they have to content themselves to slowly poison the mighty empire because they have no options otherwise. Giving them confidence but also requires great patience.

                        Though as I said earlier that also may uncertain now in the Times of Tulmult which I think was something the Realm Book pointed out, how while the Lunars were assured of the victory but not anymore despite this being even better conditions, after all the last time something like this happened the Shogunate fell just as Lunars wanted but the Realm rose up in its place. Having the Realms fall be inevitable doesn't necessarily be it will be in the Lunars favor I think, since that alone wouldn't stop the Dragon-blooded. Or at least that's my thoughts on it in any case.


                        .

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                        • #42
                          Just on Perfect Soul’s fiction, I’m a big fan of it, but also: I don’t think Any depiction of Exaltation in the fiction is actually satisfactory to everybody’s view of how it works. Themes of worthiness and destiny and breaking destiny and virtue and virtuosity are all kinda mixed up with it to the point that there’s no one when or why to how it should work, narratively.

                          Which I think is how it should be! Even if I think Mirror Flag’s exaltation is a little eh, it doesn’t hurt the game.

                          But ok. This is fiction Intended to exemplify and elucidate exaltation.
                          Certainly I can accept that Croakamancer has a view of what it’s saying, but I don’t see that view at all.

                          What I like about this fiction is that it balances what is often hard to balance about Solars: if they Exalted because they’re special or special because they Exalted. That latter is often pretty maligned but it’s not an illegitimate way to put together a character (for one thing, it takes the pressure off if a player doesn’t know the setting)

                          What I like with PS though, is that it solidly establishes both. Her anger is legitimate and Righteous and drives her to the extreme of seeking out extant religions whose silence only makes her angrier.
                          But she’s also a force for change After her exaltation, and the framing of that moment as historical adds a Lot to that side of it.

                          As I mentioned above, I don’t think it’s helpful to be dogmatic about what is and isn’t the right way to categorise exaltation ‘candidates’, but this fiction Is my favourite Example of a person attaining it.


                          Edit: also, just on Mirror Flag, I think she’s a great example of where it doesn’t help to cross examine why and how she Exalted. I don’t think it’s a great story for an Eclipse Exaltation, but I DO like Falling Tears Poet’s backstory and exaltation, and together they make for a strong narrative.
                          Last edited by Maseiken; 06-04-2019, 04:07 AM.

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                          • #43
                            I accept your viewpoint Maseiken. I think it's less a disagreement on what Exaltation should be though, and more how it's presented. I'm not a dogmatist for any given standard of Exaltation, I dislike 'the sun chooses them' for reasons of what that does to TUS as a character, but in terms strictly of 'who should be an Exalt', I've got no horse in the race. Hell, I actually rather like the concept of less 'ZOMG perfect awesome' people being given Solar Exaltation. Giving that power to humble regular people types is great and interesting.

                            Yet I got none of those themes or feelings you describe from Little Miss Perfect Pants' story. To me, it doesn't establish her as a cool dynamic significant force in her own right. Just a woman blaming god for her problems. "Do special people exalt, or does Exaltation make people special?" Great question, but it relies on the character coming off as special at some point and she doesn't to me. I've a running gag with my best friend about TUS Exalting random mortals he happens to like because of it.

                            You like it? Great! But I really don't understand how you got what you did outta it, damn it! :P To me it sells Exaltation poorly.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
                              I love the moral ambiguity behind the idea that the Solars might be no better than they ended up last time, that even the corrupt and flawed Dynasty could be saved and steered towards a better path.
                              And an excessively evil Realm undercuts the legitimacy of any fears around the Solars: 'how could they be worse than this?
                              Sure, me too. But I don't think saying that "most Dynasts think sacrificing some villagers to destroy Anathema" is that dramatic or excessive. I mean, most Western societies are pretty good places to live, with much better human rights and so on than other parts of the world... yet our leaders are absolutely willing to send drones to bomb a village where a terrorist leader is living. And indeed, consider the deaths of the innocent villagers a price they're willing to pay.

                              Essentially, it seems realistic to me, not saying "look, the Dragonblood love cackling and wearing black cloaks and genocide!" It's the sort of thing all big powers do.

                              It's all my penance for being one of five people who liked 4E Forgotten Realms I'm sure.
                              No penance could redeem that sin. You're a monster.

                              3E really doesn't give much in the fluff to really show Dragon Blooded awesomeness or the Realm as an active threat. The conflict with the Lunars tends to be framed pretty one sidedly: the Lunars beat the Realm back at least as often as they lose, if not more so. (After all, they halted its expansion this edition) The Dragon Blooded's great empire is in complete and total decline on more or less every front. We could really have used chapter fic showing off how badass Terrestrials can be. They're still overall treated as the Exalts you can beat up pretty safely which just... sucks.
                              Yeah, that's pretty fair. In trying to big up Lunars so they don't look like chumps against the Realm, they've made the Realm not seem quite so dangerous. Which slightly detracts from the achievements of heroes (Solar or whoever) who beat it.


                              Originally posted by Iceblade44
                              I wouldn't say that the fluff overall portrays them as the Exalts you can beat up pretty safely, if anything their have been a few fixes which makes clear to not mess with a Wyld Hunt, though yes it's not that prominent in WFHW, which tries to portray hunting Anathema to be a challenge with much risk.
                              You're right that it doesn't portray them as Exalts a Solar can beat easily. But I think Croakamancer is right that the Chapter Fictions at least don't really portray the Realm as a serious threat to Solars. I mean, it doesn't portray it as a paper tiger (they do chase off Seven Devil Clever), but it also doesn't portray it as terrifying. There's as much fluff of Solars beating up a Wyld Hunt single-handedly as of a Wyld Hunt taking them down.
                              Whereas I think really, the idea is supposed to be that the Realm is the Number 1 threat to most Solars.

                              I think possibly there's an issue where the DB vs Solar fights shown in Chapter Fictions tend to be a few DBs, rather than like 8 fully-prepared DBs and 300 soldiers.


                              I mean, mechanically, it's actually much scarier than in previous editions because DBs are a little stronger and Celestials much weaker.

                              Last session my Lunar PCs (who've got, like, 20 experience now, pretty much starting) got into a fight with 2 Dragonblood (a fire samurai, and a Dreaming Pearl practicioner, with not much more XP than the PCs) and a battle group of regular ashigaru spearmen.

                              We got through 2 rounds; Two of the Lunars are crashed (not good vs a battle group), the fire samurai has 17 initiative and it's his turn next, and while the battle group's taken 6 damage, that's not enough to knock them down a size. Neither DB is injured (the ambushing Changing Moon rolled 0 damage).
                              At this point I paused the combat until next session, when I hope the other 2 players will turn up and join in the combat, because they seem to be having real difficulty. Luckily, the pine marten-Lunar about to get stabbed by the samurai, Jin, convinced the samurai that he's kidnapped the samurai's family, so that's enough excuse for me to have the samurai stunt to do bashing so he can interrogate him later. Otherwise I think Jin would get his arm chopped off.
                              It is good to show that DBs are actually a threat PCs should take seriously though (in both of the high-XP games I play, DBs have never killed PCs or even done crippling injuries. Even when it's an entire Wyld Hunt vs one PC, the PC has always managed to flee, and when there's more than one PC the PCs chop up half the DBs and the other half flee. Possibly this is why neither my old character or my new character have managed to convince the other PCs that the three Realm Legions that are on their way to conquer our territory are actually a big deal).

                              So yeah, DBs are certainly not pushovers compared to Celestials.

                              But I think in the fluff, Solars are portrayed as much more powerful compared to Dragonblood than they actually are.

                              Saying all this, I don't think it's a huge thing. Not really a massive problem.

                              Perhaps some depictions of historic Wyld Hunts murdering Lunars to compare to today's weaker Wyld Hunts? Anyway, I don't think there's a big issue.
                              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 06-05-2019, 07:45 AM.


                              My characters:
                              Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                Sure, me too. But I don't think saying that "most Dynasts think sacrificing some villagers to destroy Anathema" is that dramatic or excessive. I mean, most Western societies are pretty good places to live, with much better human rights and so on than other parts of the world... yet our leaders are absolutely willing to send drones to bomb a village where a terrorist leader is living. And indeed, consider the deaths of the innocent villagers a price they're willing to pay.

                                Essentially, it seems realistic to me, not saying "look, the Dragonblood love cackling and wearing black cloaks and genocide!" It's the sort of thing all big powers do.
                                I object way less to them doing it than the way it was integrated into the fiction? Like, okay, the Realm doing morally questionable to flat out wrong things is fine; they're the oppressive empire, even as someone who likes playing them up as ambiguous I don't object to either act I called out. But the fic sorta just throws them in there both times, just as a reminder 'hey, these guys are morally complex'. It felt like the writers were trying to hit an evil quota, since most of the fic does skim/avoid that stuff, and in both cases it doesn't really affect the story. :P

                                No penance could redeem that sin. You're a monster.
                                *mutters* Still better than the BS of crashing Shade into Myth Drannor outta spite. :P #TelamontToTheEnd

                                Yeah, that's pretty fair. In trying to big up Lunars so they don't look like chumps against the Realm, they've made the Realm not seem quite so dangerous. Which slightly detracts from the achievements of heroes (Solar or whoever) who beat it.
                                'Not quite so dangerous?' How are they dangerous at all? :P Like, personally, the only reason I still regard the Realm as a threat in 3E is my mechanical knowledge. The Realm has the ability to be threatening through the forces at its command when it chooses to. Even with equal numbers and essence, Celestials can be in trouble if they make mistakes/roll badly. But pretty much every background piece on the Realm is this long extended rant about how it isn't dangerous, how it can't/won't throw all that many resources at you. Pieces like Seven Devils Clever having to run from a Wyld Hunt don't do a lot to address that trend.

                                This goes a bit beyond Chapter Fiction, but it's worth noting. There are two changes this edition that could've done something to make the Realm come off as more of a force to be reckoned with. The Battle of Futile Blood being more of a pyrrhic victory for Yurgen, and Mnemon's reclaiming Jiara from Perfect Perfect Pants et al. Both of those are technically covered in the fic, but both times it's skimmed over/minimized. Arada gets to kill Fear Eater, right before his forces get charged by Yurgen. (You can't even tell that the battle went that differently just from the fic.) Mnemon's action in Jiara is handled in the last chapter of a book that's not about Dragon Blooded or the Realm: when we get to her fic in WFHW it's just her... not being assassinated.

                                Again, this is just talking presentation. I don't buy Worfing terrestrials is the intent, just how it's coming off. Is it major, wrath producing stuff? No, not really. It's just annoying. :P But we're allowed to complain about annoying things as well as major issues, aren't we?

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