Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Exalted vs the Titans

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    alienation from common humanity
    French soldiers who strayed too far away from their units while retreating from Moscow were liable to be set upon by gangs of peasants who would beat them to death with large sticks while singing.




    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

      I would find it quite doubtful that any Lunar is even familiar with a local equivalent to the concept of "civilian". A specific term for such non-combatants in English is barely 200 years old.

      Throughout history, there have been innumerable conflicts in which the larger part of war did not consist of opposing armies very cordially opting to only engage against one another, but of rampaging around the countryside burning, pillaging and massacring. Many who don't die to the sword will go by the ensuing famine and plague, and such a thing is often the strategic point. Besieged forts and cities in particular have been prone to some of the worst and most concentrated atrocities prior to the industrial era; an army that has been forced to wait for extended periods of time in some of the worst conditions before they can get past those walls is going to have a lot of anger to resolve, all over that "civilian" population. Heck, the Mongols made such a fate an advertised matter of policy to encourage cities to surrender without a fight.

      Look at the Lunar schools and dominions in Fangs at the Gate, and tell me which sample Lunar seems particularly averse to directing massive violence against non-combatants in service to the enemy (besides the one who has been an avowed pacifist and is explicitly living in isolation from the wider conflicts).

      EDIT: Although the concept of non-combatants to not be targeted first is a bit older, but not by much.

      Here's a thing worth considering; the peasants of the Blessed Isle regularly engage in revolts against the local authorities. Where does one think that the weapons for such come from?

      How about the number of weapons that are well known to have originated as farming tools?

      When Flemish commoners banded together to oppose French royal interference, many went into battle carrying large pieces of wood with big nails sticking out of them. They called their weapons "good mornings".

      A big part of the reason that there wasn't a notion of civilians before that time was because a lot more people went armed, and would almost definitely murder invaders if they got the chance.

      You see something similar in the mindset of modern soldiers who have been posted in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's unfortunately a case in which not all of the local people are carrying arms with an intent to kill soldiers, and that uncertainty just contributes to their tension and dread. Those are soldiers whose conception of civilians has evidently become a bit spongy.
      On the other hand, Creation does contain notions of limited warfare between champions or select groups. The Hundred Kingdoms are the most-extensively described version of it in the setting. Some facets of Lookshy's work to maintain cohesion with the disparate forces of the Confederation of Rivers might also have a similar concept, since they're Shogunate-successors and have records from when warfare was quite a great deal different from the run-down magic Mad Max world it currently inhabits. Creation isn't quite like a historical example because it's arrived at where it was after two apocalypses taking down a time of wonders; this will lead to a rather weird collection of philosophical notions and ideas.

      Comment


      • #33
        To lean on "second ed's mechanics inform the setting": killing civilians used to require spending Willpower or failing a Compassion roll. Third ed's conciet of requiring a Major Intimacy to resist accepting a surrender also points to a generally modern, Western, view of "non-combatants" and the treatment thereof. Now you could argue that Baby-Eating Lunar Barbarians are the exception that proves the rule here. But I'd still wager that even if Raksi and her ilk were happy to pop corn and enjoy the fireworks, the wider Silver Pact would see it as their duty to protect Creation.

        [Edit]

        As discussed below, I've misquoted both of these rules. Whoops.
        Last edited by JohnDoe244; 06-12-2019, 11:40 AM.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
          Third ed's conciet of requiring a Major Intimacy to resist accepting a surrender
          I don't remember this?


          My characters:
          Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
          Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

          Comment


          • #35
            Looking back at Macihara, it occurs to me that several of the Titans have their own versions of not quite dying fully; Godzilla seems kind of indestructible if he has the radiation to recharge, Ghidorah can regenerate, Mothra is implied to have a life cycle consisting of a kind of reincarnation through eggs.

            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
            Third ed's conciet of requiring a Major Intimacy to resist accepting a surrender also points to a generally modern, Western, view of "non-combatants" and the treatment thereof.
            Or it points to a lot of people with dangerous Major Intimacies, especially when engaged in warfare. We've got a lot of written Lunars with that level of hatred towards the Realm.

            Originally posted by JohnDoe244
            Now you could argue that Baby-Eating Lunar Barbarians are the exception that proves the rule here.
            This is the thing I object to; this absurdification of a subject in lieu of recognising and grappling with it. This homogenisation.

            "Modern Western view." American soldiers in World War II made ornaments from the bones of Japanese troops; FDR was sent a letter opener made of such. American troops in Vietnam made necklaces from severed human ears.

            Never mind things like firebombing, carpet bombing and drones. "Our modern view is that massacring civilians makes us feel very sad. Fortunately, we have all kinds of tech to ensure that we don't need to view it".

            The advantage of having a giant monster destroy your enemies is that you can supervise it from very far away.

            Originally posted by JohnDoe244
            the wider Silver Pact would see it as their duty to protect Creation.
            What does that mean, exactly?


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
            https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

            Comment


            • #36
              ANd let's all remember that the Realm is quite possibly, a danger of Creation. What with draining Satrapies of resources and leaving them defenseless, trying to kill Creation's greatest warriors i.e. solars and lunars. Funking around with the Defense grid, which might backfire any day. And also keeping Creation weak due to their arrogance, weakness, and greed.

              There's a case to be made that keeping Creation safe involves smashing the Realm. And that includes Realm citizens

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                ANd let's all remember that the Realm is quite possibly, a danger of Creation. What with draining Satrapies of resources and leaving them defenseless, trying to kill Creation's greatest warriors i.e. solars and lunars. Funking around with the Defense grid, which might backfire any day. And also keeping Creation weak due to their arrogance, weakness, and greed.

                There's a case to be made that keeping Creation safe involves smashing the Realm. And that includes Realm citizens

                "We need to destroy the Soviet Union to keep Germany safe. That include killing their degenerate and subhuman citizens"

                Comment


                • #38
                  I don't see a reason that there'd be a racial element to it, it'd be anachronistic.

                  But "We need to defeat the Turks to keep Greece safe. That includes killing their blasphemous and heretical Mohammed-worshipping subjects."

                  Or "We need to defeat Rome to keep the Iceni safe. That includes killing their evil citizens and razing their towns."

                  Or so on. Probably seen more in religious, socio-economic, and civilisational terms than racial ones.

                  Though while I doubt "subhuman" is a term used, I can imagine many people in the Threshold describe Realm citizens with words similar to "degenerate" not in the sense of having mated with inferior races, but more in the sense of being decadent and debauched.


                  My characters:
                  Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                  Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    My comment that started this tangent was focused on the subject of how agendas in the setting harness kaiju, but I regret my contribution to it's extension.

                    One thing I'll recall is that there are definitely references to Lunars who find the plans of fellows objectionable on some grounds, although the prominent ones seem to be concerned less with hitting people that don't deserve it and more with trucking with untrustworthy powers.

                    You'd at least get some raising concerns that Ghidorah is going to render the Isle uninhabitable.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                      To lean on "second ed's mechanics inform the setting": killing civilians used to require spending Willpower or failing a Compassion roll.
                      Virtue compulsions only kicked in at rating 3+. So, yes, if someone were uncommonly caring and forgiving, they would have to go through that process, but the typical level of Compassion is just a wee bit under that.

                      Third ed's conciet of requiring a Major Intimacy to resist accepting a surrender also points to a generally modern, Western, view of "non-combatants" and the treatment thereof. Now you could argue that Baby-Eating Lunar Barbarians are the exception that proves the rule here. But I'd still wager that even if Raksi and her ilk were happy to pop corn and enjoy the fireworks, the wider Silver Pact would see it as their duty to protect Creation.
                      Another possibility - the Lunar could see folk oppressed by the Realm, even inside the Realm, as possible recruits. So the destruction might be kept at targets that hanged over the populace as a threat, or that the downtrodden hated. Their destruction could inspire the survivors to rise up against the Dynasts and patricians, or at the very least, look to other ways of defending themselves and cutting themselves off from the aristrocrats, offering the former rulers of the Blessed Isle no aid.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                        I don't remember this?
                        My mistake. You don't need to exploit an intimacy to beg for mercy.


                        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Or it points to a lot of people with dangerous Major Intimacies, especially when engaged in warfare. We've got a lot of written Lunars with that level of hatred towards the Realm.



                          This is the thing I object to; this absurdification of a subject in lieu of recognising and grappling with it. This homogenisation.

                          "Modern Western view." American soldiers in World War II made ornaments from the bones of Japanese troops; FDR was sent a letter opener made of such. American troops in Vietnam made necklaces from severed human ears.

                          Never mind things like firebombing, carpet bombing and drones. "Our modern view is that massacring civilians makes us feel very sad. Fortunately, we have all kinds of tech to ensure that we don't need to view it".

                          The advantage of having a giant monster destroy your enemies is that you can supervise it from very far away.



                          What does that mean, exactly?
                          The Exalted are heroes. In the classical, get off your butt and impose your will on the world sense.

                          I really struggle with the idea that the Lunar heroes who turned aside the Balorian Crusade would give Mechagodzilla directions to the Blessed Isle. (Or otherwise tent their fingers and Machiavelli the situation to their advantage.)

                          And whilst most of us sleep soundly in our beds whilst [insert politically controversial genocide here], we do so safe in the knowledge that we're not mystically powered superheroes who COULD intervene if we wanted to.

                          I doubt the average Lunar(/Lookshy Deeb/Gold Sid) looks at Thorns and goes "Eh. The Realm deserves it anyway." And whilst 3E presents Lunar elders as having burning hatred of the Shogunate, they're not unsympathetic to Outcastes. We're talking Godzilla here, and (whilst the best Godzilla films use Godzilla as a stand in for a militant USA) generally speaking, the different people of Earth set aside their differences in order to protect the planet from Godzilla (and even the different monsters team up in the face of threats like King Ghidorah). If Radan and Godzilla can team up to protect Japan, Leviathan can stop kaiju doing irreparable damage to the Blessed Isle.

                          Now if a Titan just appeared on the Blesses Isle that's one thing -- and I don't disagree with you. The Lunars have problems here and now, and they're not going to drop everything to help out the Realm. But if the Titans rampage in from the Wyld, I really don't see the average Lunar giving them a road map and wishing them well. Likewise, I see Lunars being proactive against threats like the Deathlords and unbound demons. I'm not fond of the idea that only the PCs get things done, or that Lunar's don't have agency -- and I know that's not what you're arguing, and I agree that most of the published Lunars probably wouldn't lose any sleep over the Realm getting attacked. What I'm saying is that attitude won't be universal -- and whether a particular Lunar elder would or would not fight the kaiju will depend on your story and the abilities of your PCs.

                          2nd's MoEP: Lunars gives a good take on what I mean by protecting Creation.

                          [As an aside, the attitudes of adults in 1940s are not the same as the attitudes of adults in 2019. Modern Western attitudes is not something that's come with the industrial revolution. Hell, the Geneva Convention wasn't until after WW2, so I'm not going to discuss this. And yes, we have had war crimes in modern wars -- but we recognise them as war crimes and prosecute appropriately. The exception proves the rule.]


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

                            [As an aside, the attitudes of adults in 1940s are not the same as the attitudes of adults in 2019. Modern Western attitudes is not something that's come with the industrial revolution. Hell, the Geneva Convention wasn't until after WW2, so I'm not going to discuss this. And yes, we have had war crimes in modern wars -- but we recognise them as war crimes and prosecute appropriately. The exception proves the rule.]

                            Just a quick Correction - The ORIGINAL Geneva Convention was actually signed 22 August, 1864. The Geneva Convention was then revised in 1906, then in 1929, and was further expanded in 1949, so... No, the Geneva Conventions were in place prior to WW2...


                            The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Post


                              Just a quick Correction - The ORIGINAL Geneva Convention was actually signed 22 August, 1864. The Geneva Convention was then revised in 1906, then in 1929, and was further expanded in 1949, so... No, the Geneva Conventions were in place prior to WW2...
                              There were several Geneva Conventions. THE Geneva Convention "relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War" (i.e. what we're talking about in this thread in regard to deliberately using Godzilla's atomic weapons on Realm civilians) is the 1949 one (the 4th Geneva Convention which overhauled the previous three and is in use today -- the modern Geneva Convention, if you will).

                              But I do appreciate the pedantry.


                              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                                The Exalted are heroes. In the classical, get off your butt and impose your will on the world sense.

                                I really struggle with the idea that the Lunar heroes who turned aside the Balorian Crusade
                                There are exactly 0 of these, given the parameters of "Lunar" and "turned aside the Balorian Crusade".

                                That was accomplished by one group of Dragon-Blooded and a First Age superweapon.

                                And whilst most of us sleep soundly in our beds whilst [insert politically controversial genocide here], we do so safe in the knowledge that we're not mystically powered superheroes who COULD intervene if we wanted to.

                                I doubt the average Lunar(/Lookshy Deeb/Gold Sid) looks at Thorns and goes "Eh. The Realm deserves it anyway." And whilst 3E presents Lunar elders as having burning hatred of the Shogunate, they're not unsympathetic to Outcastes. We're talking Godzilla here, and (whilst the best Godzilla films use Godzilla as a stand in for a militant USA) generally speaking, the different people of Earth set aside their differences in order to protect the planet from Godzilla (and even the different monsters team up in the face of threats like King Ghidorah). If Radan and Godzilla can team up to protect Japan, Leviathan can stop kaiju doing irreparable damage to the Blessed Isle.
                                1e Tamuz would be careful about it, but even he would still probably have a go at the Dragon-Blooded at the same time.

                                Now if a Titan just appeared on the Blesses Isle that's one thing -- and I don't disagree with you. The Lunars have problems here and now, and they're not going to drop everything to help out the Realm. But if the Titans rampage in from the Wyld, I really don't see the average Lunar giving them a road map and wishing them well.
                                It's not like it would even listen to you, anyway. And you're so far away from the Isle, perhaps it's more practical to suggest a relatively closer satrapy instead...

                                Likewise, I see Lunars being proactive against threats like the Deathlords and unbound demons. I'm not fond of the idea that only the PCs get things done, or that Lunar's don't have agency -- and I know that's not what you're arguing, and I agree that most of the published Lunars probably wouldn't lose any sleep over the Realm getting attacked. What I'm saying is that attitude won't be universal -- and whether a particular Lunar elder would or would not fight the kaiju will depend on your story and the abilities of your PCs.

                                2nd's MoEP: Lunars gives a good take on what I mean by protecting Creation.
                                Most, if not all, of its takes were nonsensical and impossible, though.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X