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  • #46
    If I had a choice between a behemoth destroying a nation I'm not at war with, or a nation I am at war with, I know which one I'm aiming it at. Innocents are going to die either way, so I'm not responsible for that, and I'm morally obligated to protect My People before Other People.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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    • #47
      I want to address that post in more detail when I'm at my laptop, but for the moment:

      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
      [As an aside, the attitudes of adults in 1940s are not the same as the attitudes of adults in 2019. Modern Western attitudes is not something that's come with the industrial revolution. Hell, the Geneva Convention wasn't until after WW2, so I'm not going to discuss this. And yes, we have had war crimes in modern wars -- but we recognise them as war crimes and prosecute appropriately. The exception proves the rule.]
      Do you know what the American Service-Members Protection Act is?


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Clophiroth View Post


        "We need to destroy the Soviet Union to keep Germany safe. That include killing their degenerate and subhuman citizens"
        What's godwins law, soviet version?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
          If I had a choice between a behemoth destroying a nation I'm not at war with, or a nation I am at war with, I know which one I'm aiming it at. Innocents are going to die either way, so I'm not responsible for that, and I'm morally obligated to protect My People before Other People.
          Returning to this, let us suppose that the behemoth is not threatening to destroy my nation.

          But there is a second nation which is threatening to destroy my nation. This nation makes no distinction between combatant and non-combatant, merely hard targets and soft targets.

          I will not have many qualms about provoking a behemoth and aiming it at the enemy nation.

          I would not even have many qualms about sending it specifically against the enemy nation's farmers, because the enemy nation is threatening to kill and enslave my nation's farmers. Why should I value the enemy's farmers more than my own? My nation isn't the one who started the war, or the one who continues to prosecute the war as a matter of ideology.

          With individual exceptions, the Lunar Exalted Host can co-exist with the Terrestrial Exalted Host, but Shogunate Dragon-Blooded and their Bronze Faction masters by definition refuse to co-exist with Lunars.


          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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          • #50
            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
            There were several Geneva Conventions. THE Geneva Convention "relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War" (i.e. what we're talking about in this thread in regard to deliberately using Godzilla's atomic weapons on Realm civilians) is the 1949 one (the 4th Geneva Convention which overhauled the previous three and is in use today -- the modern Geneva Convention, if you will).

            But I do appreciate the pedantry.
            But that is like saying that when the American Constitution is amended, it becomes some form of NEW Constitution... a NEW Document, which is not correct. It is STILL the American Constitution. Similarly, the Geneva Conventions were a thing prior to World War 2. The were UPDATED in 1949 (for the 3rd time), not Overhauled. The Modern Geneva Conventions are a culmination of the original Documents and their amendments/updates.

            I am not trying to be pedantic, so I apologize if this offends you in some way, shape or form. I do like this sort of discourse from time to time.


            The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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            • #51
              I see my words were poorly chosen with regard to "civilian" populations in a Bronze Age-ish setting, but there is a reason that the eventual fate of Carthage in the Punic Wars and the Khwarazmian Empire at the hands of the Mongols are so historically notable. I'd think guiding a radiation-spitting kaiju to raze an enemy state to the ground would be a similarly extreme display of brutality.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                Do you know what the American Service-Members Protection Act is?
                No.

                Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Post
                I am not trying to be pedantic, so I apologize if this offends you in some way, shape or form. I do like this sort of discourse from time to time.
                No, I really do appreciate it. It's important to be precisely, factually, and semantically correct. And how can you correct your own mistakes if people aren't willing to call you on them?

                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Returning to this, let us suppose that the behemoth is not threatening to destroy my nation.

                But there is a second nation which is threatening to destroy my nation. This nation makes no distinction between combatant and non-combatant, merely hard targets and soft targets.

                I will not have many qualms about provoking a behemoth and aiming it at the enemy nation.
                Wow that's an uncharitable view of the Realm.

                I don't see many examples of the Realm butching civilians because they're a softer target than the enemy's military. Indeed "The Realm" talks about the Satrapy system, and if it's in there then I missed the part where the Legions routinely put local farmers to the sword.

                And it's not like Godzilla's atomic breath isn't going to cause collateral envirnomental damage.

                I would be really uncomfortable with the thought of Saudi Arabia nuking North Korea's civilians, no matter how belligerent North Korea was being towards my fellow civilians. If for no other reason than the effects of the fallout. (But also because I value human life and apportion blame with the decision maker(s).)
                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 06-13-2019, 05:05 PM.


                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  I don't see many examples of the Realm butching civilians because they're a softer target than the enemy's military. Indeed "The Realm" talks about the Satrapy system, and if it's in there then I missed the part where the Legions routinely put local farmers to the sword.
                  If the local defenders were too strong to crush, the legions absolutely would destroy the people who supplied the defenders with food.

                  But let's assume they would rather die fighting the defenders until all of the defenders are dead or surrendered. Then they tax the farmers until the farmers have to become bandits or die from lack of food. If I told them I could have saved their people from slavery, and they demand to know why I forsook them, how can I justify myself?

                  If I don't defend my people, my family, my culture, then who WILL? Certainly not my enemies!

                  If my enemies will defend themselves, their families, and their culture before all others, why should not I?

                  My brother and I against my cousin, my cousin and I against our neighbor, my neighbor and I against the foreigner, the foreigner and I against the inhuman. Always those closest to you must be prioritized, because that's what you would demand of them in return.


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                    My brother and I against my cousin, my cousin and I against our neighbor, my neighbor and I against the foreigner, the foreigner and I against the inhuman. Always those closest to you must be prioritized, because that's what you would demand of them in return.
                    Lunar answer:

                    Hmmm, but where does that stop though? What if a major trading partner of the Realm is supplying them with the goods they need to continue the war against us? They might not even know our little nation exists, but they're supplying the bronze and wood that the enemy is using to build weapons and ships with. If we could unleash a plague on them, to deny them those resources, would we? Causing tens of thousands of men, women, and children to die in fear and agony? If that's the case, perhaps the Immaculates are right about us after all.

                    No, we can not judge ourselves against the bar set by our adversaries' worst offenses. Where would that leave us anyway? Bleeding the peasants beneath us dry, as the Dragonblooded do, because we are closer kin with eachother than with them? Raiding our neighbors for tribute and dragging it back to our home to relish in ourselves? I think not. If that is what we have to stoop to to achieve victory, then we do not deserve it.



                    Dynast answer:

                    Well, see, my cousin is actually the secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and I'm just the assistant secretary. She's just been getting worse and worse at her job, putting the whole ministry on a course for disaster. Seriously, the Minister doesn't even know what's going on in her own office anymore. But like, there's this war brewing in the South, and if some inauspicious accidents happen that's a firedust keg that will explode right in her face really soon. If I just slip a little line into the next missive suggesting my brother pull his dragon back to Harbourhead, our foes will smell an opportunity and attack.

                    Obviously she'd get fired, she can't even remember writing that mistaken order. It's such a pity her mind isn't what it used to be. She'll have a fantastic retirement though, I swear by all the dragons she will. Thankfully I can take over for her right away, I know her job inside and out and I really should have been doing it for years now anyway. Of course I've been quietly warning anyone who will listen that that situation is more dangerous than it appears for WEEKS now. So I can't really afford to put blood before the needs of the Realm here.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      I want to address that post in more detail when I'm at my laptop
                      Changed my mind. It's not what the thread is about.

                      I brought up Lunars doing that shit with kaiju because it's a thing they're repeatedly stated to do in their book. "Dredge up ancient horrors and set them against the Realm". Raksi was especially famous for it back in her heyday.

                      I just wanted to remind people of that fact in this wider discussion of "what's to be done with this Homer Simpson".

                      Everything else pertaining to the question of whether Lunars who would do so can or would bother to remind Godzilla not to shoot that atomic breath at any actual cities (and whether that makes them an outlier in this setting) can maybe become its own thread.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                        Hmmm, but where does that stop though?
                        It doesn't. "Prioritize the interests of the person most related/similar to you, especially when they are dependent on you" is an infinitely iterative principle.

                        If I don't protect my family, who else will? Everyone in my family should be expected to put the family's interests first, and any other family's interests second.

                        If I don't protect my people, who else will? Everyone in my culture should be expected to put the society's interests first, and any other culture's interests second.

                        If I don't protect my species, who else will? Everyone in my species should be expected to put the species' interests first, and any other species' interests second.

                        Anything else is treachery.


                        What if a major trading partner of the Realm is supplying them with the goods they need to continue the war against us?
                        That's an entirely different scenario, because you're introducing a third party.

                        If my enemy can't eat anymore, they're forced to buy food instead of weapons, and that makes them subservient to the third party, who can eventually use that imbalance to take over my enemy and offer me terms of truce.


                        Also, be clear that I'm not advocating for preferentially targeting farmers instead of rulers or soldiers. I'm not saying that I don't feel sorry for any farmers that would die because of my actions.

                        But I must always prioritize the protection of my farmers above the protection of anyone else's farmers, especially those of my enemy. If they die, that's because war is terrible.


                        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Changed my mind. It's not what the thread is about.
                          Apologies, I was in the middle of answering that last response to me and only saw this after I posted it.


                          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                            If the local defenders were too strong to crush, the legions absolutely would destroy the people who supplied the defenders with food.
                            Do you have a single canon example from any edition?

                            Because I say they absolutely would not. Which is why Lookshy and the Scavenger lands exist. It's why powerful states get to dictate the terms of their Satrapy. It's how cities like Whitewall and Fraxi have their autonomy. The Realm wants to harvest the resources of the Threshold, not rule over mass graves.

                            But let's assume they would rather die fighting the defenders until all of the defenders are dead or surrendered. Then they tax the farmers until the farmers have to become bandits or die from lack of food. If I told them I could have saved their people from slavery, and they demand to know why I forsook them, how can I justify myself?
                            Again, that's misrepresentative of what the Realm wants. The Realm wants your farmers to be wealthy and flourishing. They want them to follow an Enlightened religion. They want to protect them from soul eating demon Anathema. Not for any humanitarian reason -- the richer your farmers are, the more they can tax. The Realm isn't trying to turn your people into corpses and bandits.

                            And you justify it by respecting human life. China holds massive amounts of my nation's debt, but I'm not going to dirty-bomb Beijing because human life has value. Because some prices aren't worth paying. Because if I'm willing to commit cold-blooded mass murder, then I'm no better than the invaders.

                            If I don't defend my people, my family, my culture, then who WILL? Certainly not my enemies!

                            If my enemies will defend themselves, their families, and their culture before all others, why should not I?

                            My brother and I against my cousin, my cousin and I against our neighbor, my neighbor and I against the foreigner, the foreigner and I against the inhuman. Always those closest to you must be prioritized, because that's what you would demand of them in return.
                            Does that work?

                            Can you count on those closest to you to sacrifice their lives (or worse -- their humanity) for your interests?

                            Gandhi led a movement of peaceful resistance. He didn't slaughter British civilians. The USA came to the defence of the Kurds. The Russians to the Syrians. Saddam didn't get nuked, no matter how many lives that would have saved. And Russia took precautions to protect civilians rather than just burning Syria to the ground.

                            I agree that people need to be proactive and to stand up for themselves. But the kaiju aren't on the Lunar's side. You're literally siding with monsters against humanity. Surely that fails your test of "our species against theirs"/"me and the foreigner against the inhuman" and makes the Lunars "traitors"?

                            Leviathan against Raksi.
                            The Lunars against the Realm.
                            The Exalted against the keiju.

                            (I haven't seen the latest Godzilla, but generally speaking the films are about coming together to survive a common enemy.)

                            I'm saying the kaiju are a bigger threat to all of Creation, and the Lunars would recognise this.

                            If the Ebon Dragon shattered the Imperial Mountain, snuffed out the sun and devastated the Realm, the Lunars would not rejoice that the hated Realm was dead. They'd march in line with the Roseblack.

                            If Godzilla smashed the Imperial Manse and turned the Blessed Isle into an atomic wasteland, I don't see the Lunars sitting back and doing nothing.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            I brought up Lunars doing that shit with kaiju because it's a thing they're repeatedly stated to do in their book. "Dredge up ancient horrors and set them against the Realm". Raksi was especially famous for it back in her heyday.
                            And I agree that Raksi and the least humane Lunars would have absolutely no compunction betraying humanity to extra-dimensional monsters if it furthered their goal of vengeance. I agree further that there's nuance of circumstance that would lead others to turn a blind-eye or use the situation to their advantage. My point is only that, as a whole, the Lunars would realise that sooner or later someone has to fight Godzilla and there will be Lunars who believe the fight will be easier with Dragon-Blooded reinforcements and there will also be Lunars who don't want to see swaths of innocent people die (and the geomancy of the Blessed Isle devastated) before they act.

                            The Realm isn't beset by three hundred demons every night as the Lunars all summon up the most powerful horror they can conjure to fling at their enemies. Even Raksi isn't bringing forth Octavian to butcher Realm civilians every full moon. Which, again, is not to deny that some Lunars "Dredge up ancient horrors and set them against the Realm", but simply to show that there are limits.

                            I think Godzilla transgresses those limits.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            One thing I'll recall is that there are definitely references to Lunars who find the plans of fellows objectionable on some grounds, although the prominent ones seem to be concerned less with hitting people that don't deserve it and more with trucking with untrustworthy powers.

                            You'd at least get some raising concerns that Ghidorah is going to render the Isle uninhabitable.
                            Exactly. I really don't think we disagree the broad strokes here.
                            Last edited by JohnDoe244; 06-14-2019, 05:45 AM.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • #59
                              Nitpick. Ghandi won because the British knew that killing him would mean he would be replaced by another, more violent person. It was an intrinsic agreement to not kill him. Had he done it any other time and place, he probably would have been killed.

                              The Ebon Dragon may cause Lunars and dragonblooded to team up.... but I'm fairly sure a kaiju with no connection to the yozis won't cause such a reaction.

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                              • #60
                                One of Isator's earlier answers made me think of Smiling Rat, who was kicked out of the Silver Pact because his methods of fighting the Realm (kill everyone then reanimate their corpses, turn their fields into Shadowlands, etc) were considered too extreme, and ultimately dangerous to Creation itself.

                                But I think, as some have already mentioned, it's going to depend on the Lunar. Some will be quite happy to lay waste to the Blessed Isle, others would consider that monstrous, and a lot will be somewhere in the middle.

                                But I still maintain that most giant animal-creatures that rise out of the sea to lay waste to Realm cities often are going to be Lunars themselves. Who hopefully will avoid excessive civilian casualties, but it's going to depend.


                                My characters:
                                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                                Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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