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  • Intrinsic incompatibility methodology

    I like the old setting of Exalted, barring some obvious exceptions. I love the unique, absurdely over-the-top gonzo feeling it carried with it. Magitech, Autochtonia, giant robots, space expeditions, Gaia going in a space expedition, every village having its village sorcerer, dragons 80 kilometres long, power armors, plasma guns, Deathlords bulding fleets of ghost airships, Yozis making serious attempt of getting out of Malfeas (Developers stated in Ask the Devs thread that this is no longer a viable plan). Even the Daystar. I find it immensly awesome.

    The same affects certain mechanical parts of the game: the extreme toning down of Essence 6+ stuff in the game is an understandable move. The developers wanted that the game mechanic caps out at what is actually achievably for player characters and to make sure that Elder tier is no more a separate tier in fact. However, it is not a purely mechanical decision, but a setting change. In the setting, there is no more room for heroes in the setting literally fighting the Ebon Dragon and for beings capable of annihilating the entire world. The heroes are now supposed to be more-or-less around Achilles range.

    Many of the core mechanics in third edition: withering and decisive attacks, gambits, social interaction, sorcerous working are extremely solid, so I wouldn't like just to stick to second edition. However, the game setting actually changed so much that it feels like it belongs now to a different genre.

    Third edition while retaining lots of elements individually, works hard to change the general feel of the setting from admittedly cheap anime to pulp fantasy/classic mythology/wuxia. The developers are rather explicit about their preference to tone things down. However, I feel that it creates certain intrinsic inconsistency in the feeling of the setting. I understand what setting 3rd edition tries to create and I like it, but this is simply different from 2 ed setting, not 2 ed setting dialed back.

    Moreover, I think it creates certain tension in the seetting. Take warstriders: in 2ed we had cool giant robots. People liked them, so they have been ported to third edition. However, tthey clearly do not fit with the general tone of third edition, so the writers tried hard to present them as not-giant-robots and something that generally aways was unique and never was a standard part of warfare. Even more so with airships, where the whole aesthetics tries to strongly convey that they are not airships but rather flying chariots. Essentially, what we currently have is a mix of different settings. Each of them is cool, each is very different.

    As a result, it is hard to understand what even is the supposed tone of the setting. Recently, I was introducing new players to the game and they had hard time understanding what the game is about, when skimming third edition corebook without any exposure to the previous edition. I think second edition was way clearer about it. And I think that this is at least partially fault of this intrinsic inconsistency between the expections from previous edition and the tastes of the current developer team.

    Accidentally, this tension is a reccurring pattern in the games from Storyteller family. The developers tried to push Mage: the Ascension into the stret-level direction with the Revised edition and Vampire with the Requiem. I wonder, whether it wouldn't be healthier for the game to actually be more explicit about the split:

    - make third edition explicitly sword-and-sorcery. Remove any mention of warstriders, power armors, implosion bows, as they do not seem to fit anymore. Make artifacts even rarer.
    - make an official alternative setting for Exalted which retains gonzo cheap comic book feel of second edition.

    I personally think that I would enjoy both of the settings. I liked more toned-down stories as well and I really understand the basic intent of the developers.. What is really painful to me, personally, is the discontinuity. Over-the-top setting was something completely unique to Exalted. I really do not understand why so many people seem so actively rejective about it. I would be extremely happy to see it ported to the third edition, retaining just the things which are unctroversially improvements: core mechanics, more open and bigger Creation. In practice, I imagine that it could amount to releasing a supplement with an official second-edition shard and certain mechanical modifications to support it.

    What do you think about it?

  • #2
    Yozi escape was explicitly ruled as not happening in canon back in Games of Divinity, released 2002, so it was really never a viable plan. You won't be fighting the Ebon Dragon because the Ebon Dragon lost and doesn't fight anymore. Bits of him have to do what you say; that's the underlying assumption of the setting, creating a swords and sorcery atmosphere by calling up demons and having them do your bidding. You shouldn't be looking to tear down the entire genre of the setting; you're supposed to engage with it.

    To that end, it doesn't matter which wonders you include, as long as you realize that they don't have the plot endurance that more swords and sorcery items would. And once they break, replacing them is going to be quite time-consuming, if it's even possible. As your example of choice, for instance, war striders are definitely present, but given higher ratings on top of maintenance requirements and a hearthstone. I do actually find some of that rather confining, but it's because the underlying structure of the Craft Ability is bloated to hell and back, not because it takes five dots instead of three to get a warstrider.

    My evaporated enthusiasm for EX3 stems almost entirely from Lunars, not the absence of plot threads that never should have been or warstriders being set at a more expensive tier of Artifact.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Lanic View Post
      However, it is not a purely mechanical decision, but a setting change. In the setting, there is no more room for heroes in the setting literally fighting the Ebon Dragon and for beings capable of annihilating the entire world. The heroes are now supposed to be more-or-less around Achilles range.

      What do you think about it?
      I think Achilles could fight the Ebon Dragon.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
        Yozi escape was explicitly ruled as not happening in canon back in Games of Divinity, released 2002, so it was really never a viable plan. You won't be fighting the Ebon Dragon because the Ebon Dragon lost and doesn't fight anymore. Bits of him have to do what you say; that's the underlying assumption of the setting, creating a swords and sorcery atmosphere by calling up demons and having them do your bidding. You shouldn't be looking to tear down the entire genre of the setting; you're supposed to engage with it.

        To that end, it doesn't matter which wonders you include, as long as you realize that they don't have the plot endurance that more swords and sorcery items would. And once they break, replacing them is going to be quite time-consuming, if it's even possible. As your example of choice, for instance, war striders are definitely present, but given higher ratings on top of maintenance requirements and a hearthstone. I do actually find some of that rather confining, but it's because the underlying structure of the Craft Ability is bloated to hell and back, not because it takes five dots instead of three to get a warstrider.

        My evaporated enthusiasm for EX3 stems almost entirely from Lunars, not the absence of plot threads that never should have been or warstriders being set at a more expensive tier of Artifact.

        Is it evaporated or just evaporating? You don't think Lunars are fun in 3rd ed? I don't want to start up anything if its a touchy subject but I do value your insight on the matter. I don't deep dive into the Splat books until the PDF is formed because I figure if I'm going to read them I can read them in style, until then I only skim and read parts.

        But I was always fine with doing what ever with the Yozis, I think they are interesting. Want them to work on breaking out fine, want them to be all but dead and defeated fine. Impossibility is an exaggeration on a lot of peoples part. Like we know its not true because if the Sun or Saturn wanted they can summon the Yozis to Creation, like to fight an alien threat or to take down a Heaven Conquering Army of Chosen. Or just whatever, maybe a Solar just convinces them to.

        Then Again I was fine with potentially being able to shatter, divide or mutate an Exaltation, its just difficult. And that is a major sacred cow around here.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          On fighting the Ebon Dragon.
          It's important to note that late 2nd edition didn't elevate you to the level where you could fight him so much as it diminished him to a paper tiger.

          #1 He had a weakness so glaring and so obvious that he needed to have everything go his way up to and including the assassination of The Unconquered Sun in order to (largely) shrug it off.
          #2 His portrayal side-lined his Soul Hierarchy to the point where people considered the prospect of fighting/killing him as beating up his almost comically helpless Jouten. Right, because his 2nd and 3rd circle demons are just going to stand there going "well... I die if he dies but WHATEVER! I guess!"

          It's a similar deal with The Unconquered Sun as he appears in Glories of the Most High. His secret weakness was the "where were you!?" rants a lot of characters were already inclined to make to him if they wanted a fight.

          Now here's the thing, if a Storyteller of mine had come up with this and left us to figure it out I'd have thought it was absolutely amazing. But seeing it all laid out in the books robs you of that achievement.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lanic View Post
            What do you think about it?
            I agree.

            I think a lot of 3E's fluff changes, retconning the existence and gender of characters, are fine (not great, but fine). Until you get books (like The Realm) where they forget they gender flipped the characters.

            I think we'd have been better off with a 3E Shards of the Exalted Dream book where the main 3E canon had the lower power level and genderflipped characters and the 2E "Warstriders with Beam Klaives" were given a port to 3E mechanics but were expressly "non-canon" in the "main" game world.


            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


              Is it evaporated or just evaporating? You don't think Lunars are fun in 3rd ed? I don't want to start up anything if its a touchy subject but I do value your insight on the matter. I don't deep dive into the Splat books until the PDF is formed because I figure if I'm going to read them I can read them in style, until then I only skim and read parts.
              Full-on evaporated, didn't bother backing the KS, won't be buying any more EX3, kicked my thought-space back to 1e, only without including the word "barbarian".

              But I was always fine with doing what ever with the Yozis, I think they are interesting. Want them to work on breaking out fine, want them to be all but dead and defeated fine. Impossibility is an exaggeration on a lot of peoples part. Like we know its not true because if the Sun or Saturn wanted they can summon the Yozis to Creation, like to fight an alien threat or to take down a Heaven Conquering Army of Chosen. Or just whatever, maybe a Solar just convinces them to.

              Then Again I was fine with potentially being able to shatter, divide or mutate an Exaltation, its just difficult. And that is a major sacred cow around here.
              The Incarnae summoning the Yozis would be about the only way they would get out, and only for a brief time, thought you could potentially get some interesting story ideas about what constitutes a "brief" period of time for the Yozi or Yozis in question, how their behavior is constrained, and how the inhabitants of Creation deal with sitting across from maddened, mutilated titans.
              Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 06-12-2019, 11:41 AM.

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              • #8
                Back to 1st ed yikes! Was it more rules or the fluff that bothered you?


                And say the Incarnae unleash some or all of the Yozis, and are killed then what stops the Yozis from being free, especially if they leave Creation?

                Or what about the Incarna making a Yozi free, like either unburdening it of its oath or making an oath to never bind it?


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  I agree.

                  I think a lot of 3E's fluff changes, retconning the existence and gender of characters, are fine (not great, but fine). Until you get books (like The Realm) where they forget they gender flipped the characters.

                  I think we'd have been better off with a 3E Shards of the Exalted Dream book where the main 3E canon had the lower power level and genderflipped characters and the 2E "Warstriders with Beam Klaives" were given a port to 3E mechanics but were expressly "non-canon" in the "main" game world.
                  You're talking about an add-on book to the game line that was literally the last thing published in 2E. Even if such a book is going to come out I assume it's going to be much, much later in the line

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Flare View Post

                    You're talking about an add-on book to the game line that was literally the last thing published in 2E. Even if such a book is going to come out I assume it's going to be much, much later in the line
                    The first book published in 2E (after Core and the ST guide) was a book of First Age Magitech to get it out of the way and set the tone for the gameline. Just because it came last in the previous edition doesn't mean it has to this time (otherwise we'll be waiting a really long time for the Whitewall write-up).

                    It's too late now anyway. Warstriders are in. First Age Craft was written into the Core. *shrug* I liked 2E.


                    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Back to 1st ed yikes! Was it more rules or the fluff that bothered you?
                      Excellencies - they made me begin to long for dice to success conversion, as long as it was packaged in with the dice adding Charm and had its cost put under control.
                      Which Witches? - Being a witch in Creation is a profession. It's something that Ability Exalted should have as a facet; Attributes are way more a doorway than a practitioner.
                      Revlid Worked On It - I presumably don't get along with him, judging by the last interaction I had with him several years ago on the GITP Forums with regard to the underlying assumptions of TAWs. And the time several years before that when we were on opposite sides of the Spirit Shape argument, and IIRC he was one of the people wanting to scrub all traces of W:tA from Lunars. In the end, you get what you give.
                      Hellsing Form Sacrifices - I stopped wanting Lunar Dracula/Alucard a long time ago, and it doesn't feel like it fits with how Lunars acquire or keep forms.
                      Chasing People Through Nightmares After You've Wounded Them - that should be Perception and based off of tracking Charms, not in Strength with damage Charms.

                      I got pretty thoroughly turned off way back in July, when Dex name dropped some co-authors on Twitter. And now, I'm making good on the promise that I made.

                      And say the Incarnae unleash some or all of the Yozis, and are killed then what stops the Yozis from being free, especially if they leave Creation?

                      Or what about the Incarna making a Yozi free, like either unburdening it of its oath or making an oath to never bind it?
                      I'm assuming that they would still be bound in some fashion. Perhaps lessened in power when a crisis isn't directly present, or restricted in activities via the initial oaths. As for outright freeing them, that would probably require all of the Incarnae to sign off on it, or some other extremely difficult to engineer scenario. But for the most part, it's neither here nor there - Creation can't really exist as it's written when that deep into a crisis.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

                        The first book published in 2E (after Core and the ST guide) was a book of First Age Magitech to get it out of the way and set the tone for the gameline. Just because it came last in the previous edition doesn't mean it has to this time (otherwise we'll be waiting a really long time for the Whitewall write-up).
                        A meaningful alternative setting like those Shards of the Exalted Dream or Dreams of the First Age needs the majority of the splat books released. There's other problem is that conveying the Second Edition setting in a single book means it won't be possible to cover everything with any failure to deliver on expectations opening the way to accusations that they purposefully made the old setting look bad.


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                        • #13
                          A lot of 2E was just copy pasted from 1e. I think lunar lore was written wholesale for 2e because it was unusable but I can look in both sidereals 1E and 2E and find verbatim lore and the charms weren't properly retooled for the edition. Which meant that they were really not usable as a PC without a full rewrite. Scroll of the monk just added fuel to the fire with horrendously unbalanced SMA styles. Sidereals weren't alone with this issue as dragon blooded had some verbatim lore issues and a terrible charmset. A lot of 2E was just not usable and the lazy copy paste wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't keep adding stuff that brought down the exalted in question. The problem with lore in 2e tended to just to staple on a the current lore up until dreams which in my opinion managed to detract from things. However, even that in my opinion would have been okay if the charmsets weren't so horribly written.

                          My opinion on lore is that you can always change and edit what you want but mechanics are another issue entirely. Bad mechanics are always much tougher to fix than bad lore. 2E was a whole lot of unbalanced or unusable mechanics. I would stick with 3e mechanics and look to using the setting you want though. You can houserule artifacts much more easier than you can houserule a good system.
                          Last edited by Epimetheus; 06-13-2019, 11:40 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

                            The first book published in 2E (after Core and the ST guide) was a book of First Age Magitech to get it out of the way and set the tone for the gameline. Just because it came last in the previous edition doesn't mean it has to this time (otherwise we'll be waiting a really long time for the Whitewall write-up).

                            It's too late now anyway. Warstriders are in. First Age Craft was written into the Core. *shrug* I liked 2E.
                            Wonders of the Lost Age was billed originally as a one-stop shop for all the magitech stuff towards the end of 1e so that they could be made optional and not used if one doesn'tw ant them. It instead more or less set the entire tone for artifice in 2e, to the point of the diminishment of sorcery, the expansion of magitech to be its own special extra layer of artifice, and the making magitech various artifacts from previous editions not already that.

                            In my view, its pitch was either a failure or a lie. Since the game very much adhered to a world presented in that book, not one where it was optional.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              I like the old setting of Exalted, barring some obvious exceptions. I love the unique, absurdely over-the-top gonzo feeling it carried with it. Magitech, Autochtonia, giant robots, space expeditions, Gaia going in a space expedition, every village having its village sorcerer, dragons 80 kilometres long, power armors, plasma guns, Deathlords bulding fleets of ghost airships, Yozis making serious attempt of getting out of Malfeas (Developers stated in Ask the Devs thread that this is no longer a viable plan). Even the Daystar. I find it immensly awesome.
                              I should note that not all of these are gone, and not all of them are something that's always been in Exalted's history either.

                              Magitech first showed up in Aspect Book: Air, but had a very different tone there than what it became in the course of the line since through late 1e and into 2e.

                              Autochthonia was in in one of the very first sourceoboks for Exalted (Time of Tumult) and one of the last for 1e (Exalted: the Autocthonians). I think that if anything, it's something we'll see probably in somehwat recognizable a state, as it's very overtly magitechy/steampunky aesthetics is fine as an optional entire otherw orld (Autochthonia is to some extent an extra Direction).

                              Giant robots are in Creatures of the Wyld. Though it's notable, that they are presented as more examples of artifice, just not some super special extra level superior that has a particular aesthetic. The Brass Leviathanw as clockwork, the Five Metal Shrike was an anime crystal ship thing, grate monkeys were clockwork monkeys, and so on. I actually called that book "Monkeys, Robots, and Body-Snatchers" due to those shwoing up a lot in that book back in the day.

                              Space exploration was a shard, and is still there. The details might be different though, and that's fine. Most games aren't about that.

                              Gaia's still looking in the Faraway on a comet in 3e, as a note. Moreso now.

                              Every village having a village sorcerer is something that hasn't always been in the line's history. Even 1e, when thaumaturgy first came up, didn't treat mortal magic as very ubiquious or ntoable. It was often jsut mechanizing "shit you could do anyhow" and it hink that there is a take that a lot of the things folks thinkw ere msignificant of previous editions were really not so much, just given needless mechancial widgetry.

                              80km dragons still are there (Ebon Dragon might be that big). There's a literal mountain you can fight in 1e, and there's a giant god-damned behemoth in the monthly material. After a point big monsters become arbitrarily big. I don't think there's like, a lot different from fighting Godzilla or Shenlong after a point.

                              There are lightning guns in Arms of the Chosen, and we're getting gunzousha in Heirs to the Shogunate. Power armor is easily doable. It's just not its own special category of Artifact that has special beenies for being power armor. It's just a kind of artifact with a kind of aesthetic.

                              Deathlord death fleets were on that "existential threats are bad" thing to me. It reminded me of the Reapers in the Mass Effect franchise a bit, honestly. Big existential threats are generally bad for your setting since well, they make you stop caring about the seting in order to deal with the big existential threat. Also all the Deathlords being nine flavors of Skeletor is probably not very useful use of wordcount IMHO.

                              Yozis getting out was as the thread you note, wasn't in the original game. Games of Divinity and reaffirmed in Savant & Sorcerer bascially straight-up said that they were fucked. And it's for reasons others have said there an here. The Yozis as oriignally presented were never meant to be things to be an existential threat to the setting. Because existentail threats to the setting kind of override a lot of the things that make the setting actually interesting. No one gives a fuck about the Realm civil war if at any moment a Yozi will break outa nd just eath the entire world. And again: this wasn't a defining thing of the setting for nearly a decade of its existance. It's tossing out something not there in the first place for a reason.

                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              The same affects certain mechanical parts of the game: the extreme toning down of Essence 6+ stuff in the game is an understandable move. The developers wanted that the game mechanic caps out at what is actually achievably for player characters and to make sure that Elder tier is no more a separate tier in fact. However, it is not a purely mechanical decision, but a setting change. In the setting, there is no more room for heroes in the setting literally fighting the Ebon Dragon and for beings capable of annihilating the entire world. The heroes are now supposed to be more-or-less around Achilles range.
                              As Lioness said, the fightability of the Ebon Dragon is quesitonable in value, as he was a paper tiger. And most PCs couldn't fight it anyhow since Essence 6 wasn't where you got the "real fighting Yozis" stuff. And also as she notes, it kind of just ignores the entire thing that made the Yozis interesting and cosmic (that they are so massive they're comprised of multiple souls which are each powerful and interesting individual spirits) and turns them into a bunch of kaiju fights.

                              I mean, the Mahabarata and Ramayana are named sources in some books. So is Lord of Light. Hindu stuff is pretty blatently powerful. And so were Heracles, Cuhulain, and Utena. And as noted, Achilles probably could fight the Ebon Dragon. The Ebon Dragon's power is kind of arbitrary in the end, and shitty in its 2e take.

                              I think a big thing to think on is if the Ebon Dragon being a kaiju is something that's really 1) Actually that impressive and 2) Using it as what it was meant to be, rather than the thing every big monster thing in games usually treat htem as?

                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              ... However, the game setting actually changed so much that it feels like it belongs now to a different genre.
                              This isn't like, unique though? Exalted 1e to 2e had a lot of changes as well. This is something with most Storyteller games: Different editions aren't just a coat of paint and rules update. They often are at times in a bit, different games. Exalted 3e is like Ultimate Marvel or the new Star Trek movie series.

                              And note, this happened from 1e to 2e for a lot of folks too. And a lot of folks felt chased away from teh game by as I note, the kind of failed premise fo Wonders of the Lost Age. And more with Infernals. The game has shifted a lot in its 18 years of existance. 3e is going back to what was a lot of the defining things o f1e's presentation. But the game is big, and holds a lot it can do I think.

                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              Third edition while retaining lots of elements individually, works hard to change the general feel of the setting from admittedly cheap anime to pulp fantasy/classic mythology/wuxia. The developers are rather explicit about their preference to tone things down. However, I feel that it creates certain intrinsic inconsistency in the feeling of the setting. I understand what setting 3rd edition tries to create and I like it, but this is simply different from 2 ed setting, not 2 ed setting dialed back.
                              2e was a simply different setting from 1e as well. Different editions just are well, different. I don't see the issue hre in itself, honestly.

                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              Moreover, I think it creates certain tension in the seetting. Take warstriders: in 2ed we had cool giant robots. People liked them, so they have been ported to third edition. However, tthey clearly do not fit with the general tone of third edition, so the writers tried hard to present them as not-giant-robots and something that generally aways was unique and never was a standard part of warfare. Even more so with airships, where the whole aesthetics tries to strongly convey that they are not airships but rather flying chariots. Essentially, what we currently have is a mix of different settings. Each of them is cool, each is very different.
                              Warstriders were in 1e, man. In literally the third sourcebook for the line, actually (Book of 3 Circles). I think warstriders actually do fit a particular kind of giant robot. The big thing is that they're not Gundams or Nightmare Frames that are stndard part of warfare, sure. They're Evas or RahXephons: Unique powerful things that each have a legend and which are one-of-a-kind. Super robots fit just fine in the world of Exalted, since super robots are the sort of things that legends get built aroudn (ie, focus individually of a show) and which each is memorable. Note, Lookshy even does still have airships like Skywolf. It's just that Skywolf isn't some "Dozens made, not important" ship. It is important, it is powerful and there's nothing like it in the world and it woudl have been notable in the First Age too. You can have magitech and such, you can have airships too. It's just that they're notable when they're there. Creation can have its skyships and vimanas and such since it's a kitchen sink setting. I think you oversell differences when they're no there, and assume that 2e's take was somehow the "correct" when it was well, the third try at them by that point. 3e just presents another one for another time.

                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              As a result, it is hard to understand what even is the supposed tone of the setting. Recently, I was introducing new players to the game and they had hard time understanding what the game is about, when skimming third edition corebook without any exposure to the previous edition. I think second edition was way clearer about it. And I think that this is at least partially fault of this intrinsic inconsistency between the expections from previous edition and the tastes of the current developer team.
                              I mean, the book gives you a lot on the Exalted, what you want to play them for, and the world they're in. The tone It hink is pretty fine through the corebook, its fiction, and its various soruce material pieces. What do you think in the corebook causes the conflict? I think a big thing in this post here that I get is you oversell how much the devs toned down some things. Again, Heracles, Rama, and Jubei are all Exalted inspiration. That sets a lot of the tone to me right there.

                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              Accidentally, this tension is a reccurring pattern in the games from Storyteller family. The developers tried to push Mage: the Ascension into the stret-level direction with the Revised edition and Vampire with the Requiem. I wonder, whether it wouldn't be healthier for the game to actually be more explicit about the split:

                              - make third edition explicitly sword-and-sorcery. Remove any mention of warstriders, power armors, implosion bows, as they do not seem to fit anymore. Make artifacts even rarer.
                              - make an official alternative setting for Exalted which retains gonzo cheap comic book feel of second edition.
                              Exalted is notable in this in part since while Mage's cosmology is built on gettinga way from the wrold that we know, Creation originally was sold to many people as the wrold you play in. And I think 3e is mostly focusing on the fact the fact that well, this is a setting that's interesting, big and unique. How about make folks want to paly there and explore it rather than making it another fantasy setting waiting to be saved from the Doom Lords of Doomness.

                              And again, I think a bit is you oversell how much is being tossed from the anime and such. Warstriders, pwoer armores and First Age wonders have their place. Exalted note has had Jack Vance's The Dying Earth as inspriation and that has all sorts of technobabble fun sci-fi bits. It just doesn't make those the most important kinds of things. Creation doesn't either. I think a big thing is that Creation is big, and Exalted is a varied, kitchen-sinky world. It can do all of those things. It still can do schlocky anime and comics. It just happenst to not make them the thing. That doesn't mean they aren't still there.

                              Originally posted by Lanic View Post
                              I personally think that I would enjoy both of the settings. I liked more toned-down stories as well and I really understand the basic intent of the developers.. What is really painful to me, personally, is the discontinuity. Over-the-top setting was something completely unique to Exalted. I really do not understand why so many people seem so actively rejective about it. I would be extremely happy to see it ported to the third edition, retaining just the things which are unctroversially improvements: core mechanics, more open and bigger Creation. In practice, I imagine that it could amount to releasing a supplement with an official second-edition shard and certain mechanical modifications to support it.

                              What do you think about it?
                              I don't think over-the-topness was as unqiue to Exalted as it seems like anymore. I'd actually even argue when it came out in 2001, it wasn't even that much. Not long after we got WW's Adventure!, which was pulp action with dinosaurs in the Amazon, volcano machines, and the abiltiy to have a flying island fortress or be an MIB level of hard to find. And since, games like Nobilis, Chuubo, Tenra Basho Zero, and Godbound all have come by that have big, epic settings but in different ways than Exalted did. If what made Exalted unique was its being gonzo, it isn't so unique then. I think Exalted is more than an RPG.net motivational poster meme.

                              You yourself note, Creation is bigger and more open. A big thing is that some of the things you miss, make it so that that bigger and more open don't matter if brought back. Again: Why does an empire rising in teh Southwest matter if the whole world from corner to corner is doomed if a Yozi gets out and is about to get out? Or that thirteen Deahtlords have to be stopped soon or the world is over? If what's important is the world, then make the world importantw as a vibe going. And if the world is big and open, then it should have more to it to make it feel big and open. This means diverse aesthetics, diverse range of competence, and making the wonderful feel like its notably wonderful instead of mundane. You can do a gonzo schockly game really with anys ystem. It takes more work and is more itneresting to interact with a game that's a world beyond a meme I guess.


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