Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Intrinsic incompatibility methodology

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Morty
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    But the Devs (past and present) made a conscious decision to tone down magitech this edition. Then they put magitech in anyway and made it more powerful than everything else.
    You keep saying that and I keep having no idea what you're talking about. How is magitech a) in the game and b) more powerful than everything else?

    Leave a comment:


  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Flare View Post

    You might not need Compass Underworld, but you probably would like Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals. Even if what we got in 2E was urgh.
    Would you? Seeing as basically none of the mechanics are the same in Burn Legend.

    More to the point, we're expected to run games in the default setting without rules for Sidereals so clearly you can run games without Sidereal rules.

    But this just further makes me question, if you so desperately want a 2E setting...why not just run 3E in a 2E setting? Why do you need specifically a book telling you you can do that. Burn Legend was a brand new setting (of what existed, it mostly focused on the combat mechanics), as were the others. What you want is a setting that already exists and has dozens of books about it, so just...use those books?
    I don't have any problem running 3E mechanics in 2E setting. Heck, I don't mind running 2E mechanics (or Wild Talents mechanics) in 2E's setting.

    But the Devs (past and present) made a conscious decision to tone down magitech this edition. Then they put magitech in anyway and made it more powerful than everything else. It would have made for a more coherent setting if they had NOT put magitech back in the game -- but if they were desperate to translate it to 3E, I am suggesting they could have done it with alt-universe rules. A Shard book was one idea: going Beamklaive and putting Warstriders and mechanical hands in the Autochthon book is another alternative.

    The current paradigm isn't satisfying to me. I'd have been happy to see magitech nerfed into line with other artifacts. I'd have been happy for the books to just hand magitech to the PCs as a straight upgrade. I'd have been satisfied if magitech was nuked from orbit to focus on Bronze Age heroics. What is unsatisfying to me is that magitech exists, is flat out better than other options, but the price of acquisition is so high that the PCs can't use it without derailing the game AND this is a conscious design choice.

    I can fix it with house rules. But really, in terms of fluff, there's not a lot of difference between 2E magitech and 3E magitech. I get that there's supposed to be. But there's not.
    Last edited by JohnDoe244; 06-19-2019, 01:12 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    I agree that something like Stormcaller could exist with a "magitech" aesthetic without needing to be a First Age Artifact, because the scale of its power is perfectly fine within the normal 5-dot rating.

    Similarly, you could get something like Iron-Man's armor as a regular 5-dot artifact, because it's just super-special armor on the regular human size scale. Arms of the Chosen already features a flying artifact armor with a pinnacle Charm to turn into a creature of Legendary Size, so even the Hulk-Buster upgrade is on the table. (It probably won't have Devastating Actions, but the Hulk-Buster didn't need them because the Hulk didn't have them either.)

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    They have Craft, but not at all in that direction.

    I mean, I'm sure there's some Neomah amongst the vast hordes of hell who knows a bit of Craft (First Age Artifice). But how are you going to find them?

    I'd suggest a different demon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Maseiken
    replied
    Originally posted by Bastet View Post
    This discussion has made me realise I never saw or heard of anyone starting play as a Warstrider pilot in 2nd edition.
    Right here. Lookshy Warstrider pilot/socialite PC. For my part playing as military personnel in a squadron of warstrider pilots alongside other squadrons that are maintained and resourced by Lookshy, I haven’t found 3e particularly pushing back in terms of fluff or mechanics.

    And @Sunder the intention was that the neomah are doing maintenance. I didn’t check if they typically have Craft in that direction but it wouldn’t be unreasonable for one or more Neomah to be learned in It.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Cool, thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Vance
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Makes sense; there's some really cool evocations in there. But I think if you just got a bunch of free extras at the beginning with no XP investment (besides Legendary Size, enormous strength and soak, ablative health levels, devastating actions, etc, etc...) I think they'd be overpowered.

    Does that mean if you do, say, Gunzota armour or something later, they also will work similarly to other artefacts in terms of mechanics? (If not aesthetics.)
    Gunzosha armor (which is in Heirs to the Shogunate) uses Evocations like normal. There are some little tweaks and twists, but it's not in a whole separate class of its own.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Makes sense; there's some really cool evocations in there. But I think if you just got a bunch of free extras at the beginning with no XP investment (besides Legendary Size, enormous strength and soak, ablative health levels, devastating actions, etc, etc...) I think they'd be overpowered.

    Does that mean if you do, say, Gunzota armour or something later, they also will work similarly to other artefacts in terms of mechanics? (If not aesthetics.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert Vance
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Did that ever happen though?

    Warstriders are magitech, but they don't frontload powers (beyond "be huge"-related stuff). I suspect we can just put that down as earlier design ideas that got nixed.
    You'd be correct.

    Long story short: That idea predated the full-fledged development of the Evocation system. Once we started actually writing up warstriders and realized how fucking awesome their Evocations felt, we embraced them.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanic View Post



    You see, this is exactly the kind of thing which I would like to see discussed.

    I understand the emotions of Exalted veterans which feel that 2ed changed their favourite game and feel happy that 3 ed restores the original feel. The thing is, however, that now 2 ed is also a part of the history of the game and now whenever sometimes treat 2 ed feel as a baseline, they are treated almost as if they were hostile to the game as such. One of the signs (admittedly anecdotal) that this kind of emotion may be unhealthy to the community is the fact that 2 ed-related stuff seems to be discussed more on big general rpg forums than here.

    Full-fledged shard can be indeed not a viable option at this point, but I think that a couple of pages of a advice "what to do if you want to retain 2 ed feel", possibly with a couple of optional rules would make no harm to anyone. For instance, Mage: 20th anniversarry edition, managed to be extremely community-friendly, and to present very different feels of the setting as viable and cool options. Similarly, Chronicles of Darkness, by introducing "Tiers" stopped forcing the idea that every campaign should be devoted to intimate, deeply personal stories.
    This isn't a bad idea, and it wouldn't be all that difficult; warstriders, lightning ballistas, and soon I guess gunzota armour (not sure) are all there.

    Maybe something for the storyteller guide.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Did that ever happen though?

    Warstriders are magitech, but they don't frontload powers (beyond "be huge"-related stuff). I suspect we can just put that down as earlier design ideas that got nixed.
    Well, the siege weapons have one Charm that automatically activates when you attune to the object, the vehicles act like vehicles and don't have evocations, and the automatons are QCs that are flagged as such and which have to be repaired, so some part of that still exists. Warstriders, incidentally, were intended to be weird things that had both frontloading (the fact that you're in a walking siege weapon, in this case) and Evocations to go above and beyond, which is probably why they're a minimum of Artifact 5 in EX3. I guess we'll see if they hold closer to it in Heirs to the Shogunate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lanic
    replied
    Originally posted by Steamfunk View Post
    This is a thing I keep saying a lot, but it is easy to restore the "feel" of 2e magitech by reskinning most of the aesthetics of current artifacts. Stormbringer could be a demon daiklaive or a Tesla coil katana. You can reset its special attack through meditation and ceremony or using craft to socket out the blue jade capacitors that blew when you overclocked it - maybe both. The point is, magitech the aesthetic is entirely divorced from mechanics and magitech the artifacts-but-better mechanics is readily addressed with evocations that unlock for free but have other rate limiting factors such as maintenance or ammo.


    You see, this is exactly the kind of thing which I would like to see discussed.

    I understand the emotions of Exalted veterans which feel that 2ed changed their favourite game and feel happy that 3 ed restores the original feel. The thing is, however, that now 2 ed is also a part of the history of the game and now whenever sometimes treat 2 ed feel as a baseline, they are treated almost as if they were hostile to the game as such. One of the signs (admittedly anecdotal) that this kind of emotion may be unhealthy to the community is the fact that 2 ed-related stuff seems to be discussed more on big general rpg forums than here.

    Full-fledged shard can be indeed not a viable option at this point, but I think that a couple of pages of a advice "what to do if you want to retain 2 ed feel", possibly with a couple of optional rules would make no harm to anyone. For instance, Mage: 20th anniversarry edition, managed to be extremely community-friendly, and to present very different feels of the setting as viable and cool options. Similarly, Chronicles of Darkness, by introducing "Tiers" stopped forcing the idea that every campaign should be devoted to intimate, deeply personal stories.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunder the Gold
    replied
    Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
    “I summoned a bunch of Metody and crafted them into a solid Vitriol-and-tainted-brass warstrider.”
    “Wow that’s-“
    “Well I didn’t MAKE the warstrider,I summoned Alveula to do the Actual Crafting.”
    “Ah! Impressive, and you pil-“
    “-pilot?! Please. I wouldn’t dirty my hands. No, I simply watch the pilot and give them orders.”
    “That sounds-“
    “Well, I don’t Personally watch them. Of course. The Angylkae will report back to me on how everything is going. Usually pretty well. With the spear and everything.”
    “The sp-“
    “Gervesin. He seems happy with the arrangement. Yes, it’s hard work maintaining this thing-“
    “Those are Neomah...”
    “Yes, very taxing. Watching them and making sure they’re working hard. Almost as difficult as directing the pilot.”
    “Who’s the pilot then?”
    “Three Marottes in a coat and hat.”
    Aside from the choice of pilots, I really want to know how well this arrangement could actually work.

    It would take a Celestial Sorcerer, at least.

    Also, what were the Neomah doing? Serving as Gervesin's concubines or something?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Did that ever happen though?

    Warstriders are magitech, but they don't frontload powers (beyond "be huge"-related stuff). I suspect we can just put that down as earlier design ideas that got nixed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Steamfunk View Post
    This is a thing I keep saying a lot, but it is easy to restore the "feel" of 2e magitech by reskinning most of the aesthetics of current artifacts. Stormbringer could be a demon daiklaive or a Tesla coil katana. You can reset its special attack through meditation and ceremony or using craft to socket out the blue jade capacitors that blew when you overclocked it - maybe both. The point is, magitech the aesthetic is entirely divorced from mechanics and magitech the artifacts-but-better mechanics is readily addressed with evocations that unlock for free but have other rate limiting factors such as maintenance or ammo.
    I don't think that the premise of the Charm system quite agrees with re-skinning. A lot of effort goes into trying to make distinct sets of aesthetics and functions distinct, making that a tricky area at best. One of those areas was supposed to be in ensuring that First Age Wonders that warp the setting genre were more front-loaded and less reliant on Evocations, for example, which would make the bulk of Stormcaller's mechanics ill-suited to being a superconducting katana, to address that one example,

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X