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Intrinsic incompatibility methodology

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  • Epimetheus
    replied
    A lot of 2E was just copy pasted from 1e. I think lunar lore was written wholesale for 2e because it was unusable but I can look in both sidereals 1E and 2E and find verbatim lore and the charms weren't properly retooled for the edition. Which meant that they were really not usable as a PC without a full rewrite. Scroll of the monk just added fuel to the fire with horrendously unbalanced SMA styles. Sidereals weren't alone with this issue as dragon blooded had some verbatim lore issues and a terrible charmset. A lot of 2E was just not usable and the lazy copy paste wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't keep adding stuff that brought down the exalted in question. The problem with lore in 2e tended to just to staple on a the current lore up until dreams which in my opinion managed to detract from things. However, even that in my opinion would have been okay if the charmsets weren't so horribly written.

    My opinion on lore is that you can always change and edit what you want but mechanics are another issue entirely. Bad mechanics are always much tougher to fix than bad lore. 2E was a whole lot of unbalanced or unusable mechanics. I would stick with 3e mechanics and look to using the setting you want though. You can houserule artifacts much more easier than you can houserule a good system.
    Last edited by Epimetheus; 06-13-2019, 11:40 PM.

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

    The first book published in 2E (after Core and the ST guide) was a book of First Age Magitech to get it out of the way and set the tone for the gameline. Just because it came last in the previous edition doesn't mean it has to this time (otherwise we'll be waiting a really long time for the Whitewall write-up).
    A meaningful alternative setting like those Shards of the Exalted Dream or Dreams of the First Age needs the majority of the splat books released. There's other problem is that conveying the Second Edition setting in a single book means it won't be possible to cover everything with any failure to deliver on expectations opening the way to accusations that they purposefully made the old setting look bad.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Back to 1st ed yikes! Was it more rules or the fluff that bothered you?
    Excellencies - they made me begin to long for dice to success conversion, as long as it was packaged in with the dice adding Charm and had its cost put under control.
    Which Witches? - Being a witch in Creation is a profession. It's something that Ability Exalted should have as a facet; Attributes are way more a doorway than a practitioner.
    Revlid Worked On It - I presumably don't get along with him, judging by the last interaction I had with him several years ago on the GITP Forums with regard to the underlying assumptions of TAWs. And the time several years before that when we were on opposite sides of the Spirit Shape argument, and IIRC he was one of the people wanting to scrub all traces of W:tA from Lunars. In the end, you get what you give.
    Hellsing Form Sacrifices - I stopped wanting Lunar Dracula/Alucard a long time ago, and it doesn't feel like it fits with how Lunars acquire or keep forms.
    Chasing People Through Nightmares After You've Wounded Them - that should be Perception and based off of tracking Charms, not in Strength with damage Charms.

    I got pretty thoroughly turned off way back in July, when Dex name dropped some co-authors on Twitter. And now, I'm making good on the promise that I made.

    And say the Incarnae unleash some or all of the Yozis, and are killed then what stops the Yozis from being free, especially if they leave Creation?

    Or what about the Incarna making a Yozi free, like either unburdening it of its oath or making an oath to never bind it?
    I'm assuming that they would still be bound in some fashion. Perhaps lessened in power when a crisis isn't directly present, or restricted in activities via the initial oaths. As for outright freeing them, that would probably require all of the Incarnae to sign off on it, or some other extremely difficult to engineer scenario. But for the most part, it's neither here nor there - Creation can't really exist as it's written when that deep into a crisis.

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Flare View Post

    You're talking about an add-on book to the game line that was literally the last thing published in 2E. Even if such a book is going to come out I assume it's going to be much, much later in the line
    The first book published in 2E (after Core and the ST guide) was a book of First Age Magitech to get it out of the way and set the tone for the gameline. Just because it came last in the previous edition doesn't mean it has to this time (otherwise we'll be waiting a really long time for the Whitewall write-up).

    It's too late now anyway. Warstriders are in. First Age Craft was written into the Core. *shrug* I liked 2E.

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  • Flare
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    I agree.

    I think a lot of 3E's fluff changes, retconning the existence and gender of characters, are fine (not great, but fine). Until you get books (like The Realm) where they forget they gender flipped the characters.

    I think we'd have been better off with a 3E Shards of the Exalted Dream book where the main 3E canon had the lower power level and genderflipped characters and the 2E "Warstriders with Beam Klaives" were given a port to 3E mechanics but were expressly "non-canon" in the "main" game world.
    You're talking about an add-on book to the game line that was literally the last thing published in 2E. Even if such a book is going to come out I assume it's going to be much, much later in the line

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Back to 1st ed yikes! Was it more rules or the fluff that bothered you?


    And say the Incarnae unleash some or all of the Yozis, and are killed then what stops the Yozis from being free, especially if they leave Creation?

    Or what about the Incarna making a Yozi free, like either unburdening it of its oath or making an oath to never bind it?

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post


    Is it evaporated or just evaporating? You don't think Lunars are fun in 3rd ed? I don't want to start up anything if its a touchy subject but I do value your insight on the matter. I don't deep dive into the Splat books until the PDF is formed because I figure if I'm going to read them I can read them in style, until then I only skim and read parts.
    Full-on evaporated, didn't bother backing the KS, won't be buying any more EX3, kicked my thought-space back to 1e, only without including the word "barbarian".

    But I was always fine with doing what ever with the Yozis, I think they are interesting. Want them to work on breaking out fine, want them to be all but dead and defeated fine. Impossibility is an exaggeration on a lot of peoples part. Like we know its not true because if the Sun or Saturn wanted they can summon the Yozis to Creation, like to fight an alien threat or to take down a Heaven Conquering Army of Chosen. Or just whatever, maybe a Solar just convinces them to.

    Then Again I was fine with potentially being able to shatter, divide or mutate an Exaltation, its just difficult. And that is a major sacred cow around here.
    The Incarnae summoning the Yozis would be about the only way they would get out, and only for a brief time, thought you could potentially get some interesting story ideas about what constitutes a "brief" period of time for the Yozi or Yozis in question, how their behavior is constrained, and how the inhabitants of Creation deal with sitting across from maddened, mutilated titans.
    Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 06-12-2019, 11:41 AM.

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanic View Post
    What do you think about it?
    I agree.

    I think a lot of 3E's fluff changes, retconning the existence and gender of characters, are fine (not great, but fine). Until you get books (like The Realm) where they forget they gender flipped the characters.

    I think we'd have been better off with a 3E Shards of the Exalted Dream book where the main 3E canon had the lower power level and genderflipped characters and the 2E "Warstriders with Beam Klaives" were given a port to 3E mechanics but were expressly "non-canon" in the "main" game world.

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  • Lioness
    replied
    On fighting the Ebon Dragon.
    It's important to note that late 2nd edition didn't elevate you to the level where you could fight him so much as it diminished him to a paper tiger.

    #1 He had a weakness so glaring and so obvious that he needed to have everything go his way up to and including the assassination of The Unconquered Sun in order to (largely) shrug it off.
    #2 His portrayal side-lined his Soul Hierarchy to the point where people considered the prospect of fighting/killing him as beating up his almost comically helpless Jouten. Right, because his 2nd and 3rd circle demons are just going to stand there going "well... I die if he dies but WHATEVER! I guess!"

    It's a similar deal with The Unconquered Sun as he appears in Glories of the Most High. His secret weakness was the "where were you!?" rants a lot of characters were already inclined to make to him if they wanted a fight.

    Now here's the thing, if a Storyteller of mine had come up with this and left us to figure it out I'd have thought it was absolutely amazing. But seeing it all laid out in the books robs you of that achievement.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    Yozi escape was explicitly ruled as not happening in canon back in Games of Divinity, released 2002, so it was really never a viable plan. You won't be fighting the Ebon Dragon because the Ebon Dragon lost and doesn't fight anymore. Bits of him have to do what you say; that's the underlying assumption of the setting, creating a swords and sorcery atmosphere by calling up demons and having them do your bidding. You shouldn't be looking to tear down the entire genre of the setting; you're supposed to engage with it.

    To that end, it doesn't matter which wonders you include, as long as you realize that they don't have the plot endurance that more swords and sorcery items would. And once they break, replacing them is going to be quite time-consuming, if it's even possible. As your example of choice, for instance, war striders are definitely present, but given higher ratings on top of maintenance requirements and a hearthstone. I do actually find some of that rather confining, but it's because the underlying structure of the Craft Ability is bloated to hell and back, not because it takes five dots instead of three to get a warstrider.

    My evaporated enthusiasm for EX3 stems almost entirely from Lunars, not the absence of plot threads that never should have been or warstriders being set at a more expensive tier of Artifact.

    Is it evaporated or just evaporating? You don't think Lunars are fun in 3rd ed? I don't want to start up anything if its a touchy subject but I do value your insight on the matter. I don't deep dive into the Splat books until the PDF is formed because I figure if I'm going to read them I can read them in style, until then I only skim and read parts.

    But I was always fine with doing what ever with the Yozis, I think they are interesting. Want them to work on breaking out fine, want them to be all but dead and defeated fine. Impossibility is an exaggeration on a lot of peoples part. Like we know its not true because if the Sun or Saturn wanted they can summon the Yozis to Creation, like to fight an alien threat or to take down a Heaven Conquering Army of Chosen. Or just whatever, maybe a Solar just convinces them to.

    Then Again I was fine with potentially being able to shatter, divide or mutate an Exaltation, its just difficult. And that is a major sacred cow around here.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanic View Post
    However, it is not a purely mechanical decision, but a setting change. In the setting, there is no more room for heroes in the setting literally fighting the Ebon Dragon and for beings capable of annihilating the entire world. The heroes are now supposed to be more-or-less around Achilles range.

    What do you think about it?
    I think Achilles could fight the Ebon Dragon.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Yozi escape was explicitly ruled as not happening in canon back in Games of Divinity, released 2002, so it was really never a viable plan. You won't be fighting the Ebon Dragon because the Ebon Dragon lost and doesn't fight anymore. Bits of him have to do what you say; that's the underlying assumption of the setting, creating a swords and sorcery atmosphere by calling up demons and having them do your bidding. You shouldn't be looking to tear down the entire genre of the setting; you're supposed to engage with it.

    To that end, it doesn't matter which wonders you include, as long as you realize that they don't have the plot endurance that more swords and sorcery items would. And once they break, replacing them is going to be quite time-consuming, if it's even possible. As your example of choice, for instance, war striders are definitely present, but given higher ratings on top of maintenance requirements and a hearthstone. I do actually find some of that rather confining, but it's because the underlying structure of the Craft Ability is bloated to hell and back, not because it takes five dots instead of three to get a warstrider.

    My evaporated enthusiasm for EX3 stems almost entirely from Lunars, not the absence of plot threads that never should have been or warstriders being set at a more expensive tier of Artifact.

    Leave a comment:

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