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Trying to get a sense of scale with exalted.

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  • #16
    We're playing 3e, if that helps.

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    • #17
      I've told my players that 5 successes constitutes a "legendary success". Once one player got 10 successes on a performance (sword dance) roll, the entire assembly of Fajad (Merchants, Scholars, Nobles, Poets, Artisans, Courtesans, etc) were tripping over themselves to give him gifts and tokens of appreciation. Every palace guard, to a man, presented their sword to him and he gained the Sobriquet: Sword Dancer merit for free. Every important person in Fajad heard about his grace, and the poets were all in a race to write the poem about his beauty and what it meant to them. When in Fajad, he has nigh limitless access to anything he wants as everyone is bending over backwards to appease the beautiful, once in a century Flawless Master.

      That's 10 successes. after that, it ceases to be meaningful to mortals. 21 successes is enough to make the heavens cry, to convince the rains to fall upward, the mountain to yield. 21 successes would make First and Forsaken Lion stay his armies for a single day.


      ..."But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me"

      Message me for Japanese translations.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post

        You either succeed or you don't. Aside from extended rolls (let's include combat in that), bonus successes don't do anything.As DrLoveMonkey says, it's so you can succeed the hardest tasks in the most difficult circumstances reliably. I'd go one further and just let the player spend the motes and succeed without rolling most of the time.

        If you're trying to pick a lock, you either open the lock or you don't. A normal lock made by an average locksmith might be difficulty 1, while a magic lock created by a demi-god from a bygone age might be difficulty 5. Without a very good reason, I wouldn't put a Difficulty above 5 -- if it can't be done with five successes then it can't be done (without using magic).

        Conceptually, leaping ten stories or hearing tectonic plates move might be difficulty 20, but I straight up wouldn't allow a roll unless you had some kind of magic (not an Excellency) to facilitate it. And if you do have such magic, chances are the difficulty is going to be lower.

        21 successes should be ridiculous overkill. (Or massive unprecidented progress on an extended roll.)
        I actually thought a lot about your answer and I kinda like it, it would help me a lot managing the power of excellencies that sometimes bother me. However I still have some unresolved issues with the limitations of difficulty at 5 : what happens when someone tries to open the aforementionned crafted by a demi god lock while the palace is crumbling around ? Is it still difficulty 5 ? The problem I have is the same of you fix the ceiling of difficulty higher : anything difficulty N would be difficulty N+1 under some circomstance, so defining a hard ceiling seems impossible. However I think the ceiling difficulty 5 is too low and doesn't allow for good adjustment, that I dont know how to resolve. Furthermore, there is an example of difficulty 10 state a fact in Miracles of the Solar Exalted, which made me think difficulty 5 is not the hard ceiling it seems to be in the core book

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chausse View Post

          I actually thought a lot about your answer and I kinda like it, it would help me a lot managing the power of excellencies that sometimes bother me. However I still have some unresolved issues with the limitations of difficulty at 5 : what happens when someone tries to open the aforementionned crafted by a demi god lock while the palace is crumbling around ? Is it still difficulty 5 ? The problem I have is the same of you fix the ceiling of difficulty higher : anything difficulty N would be difficulty N+1 under some circomstance, so defining a hard ceiling seems impossible. However I think the ceiling difficulty 5 is too low and doesn't allow for good adjustment, that I dont know how to resolve. Furthermore, there is an example of difficulty 10 state a fact in Miracles of the Solar Exalted, which made me think difficulty 5 is not the hard ceiling it seems to be in the core book
          Do you recall the exact context in Miracles? Difficult 5 isn’t a hard ceiling technically (combat and social interactions can get to 9-10) but otherwise, what your describing is a source of penalties, more than a difficulty increase.


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          • #20
            Yeah I found it again. Hundred Sages Focus, one of the new charm of Lore page 17, on its comment, has the writer (I don't know his legitimacy concerning the system though) wrote that he prepared an especially difficult secret to find with a lore roll Difficulty 10.

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            • #21
              I think, though I'm not sure, that the Lore charms were written by John Morke, who was at that time one of the two lead developers for Exalted 3rd edition.
              They certainly read like Morke's style.


              Personally, I feel the game works as-is intended when anything that a normal human could possibly do is difficulty 1-5. Difficulty is something which is challenging but doable for one of the best people at it in the entire world (ie a difficulty 5 Athletics+Strength roll to lift something is the sort of challenge you get on "World's Strongest Man"; possibly not the final challenge though, that might be difficulty 6). Things which a human couldn't really do at all without modern technology, but which you want to allow your players to do with their incredible skill, could possibly be higher. But generally, I'd only use higher difficulties for magical stuff.
              (Of course, there's a lot of magical stuff in Exalted...)

              I think some of the examples given (for example, the appendix removal) are bad examples though, tbh. It's better to think:
              Challenging for an amateur, or easy but not effortless for a professional; difficulty 1-2
              Challenging for a professional, or easy but not effortless for the world champion; difficulty 3-4
              Challenging for the world champion; difficulty 5
              Extremely difficulty for the world champion; difficulty 7 (but there's very little that's going to be this difficulty, yet actually still possible without magic)

              This is based on the dice pools people are rolling, basically.

              The thing is, of course, that with an excellency, Solars can be world champions (ie have 9-11 dice) in multiple areas. Which is maybe story-appropriate (what is Batman not a world champion in?), but can be irritating for an ST to run.


              I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Epee102 View Post

                Do you recall the exact context in Miracles? Difficult 5 isn’t a hard ceiling technically (combat and social interactions can get to 9-10) but otherwise, what your describing is a source of penalties, more than a difficulty increase.
                The context is a charm that uses larceny to introduce a fact about the security weaknesses in a building. If the Storyteller determines that those facts are invalid because there simply are no weaknesses, then a difficulty 10 roll introduces one anyway.

                I don''t know if 5 should be considered a rock hard cap, but it's pretty firm. At a certain point though difficulty N+1 just enters territory of specific charms. There's a few reasons why I think that should be the case.

                For one it invalidates a lot of Solar charms, even ones that aren't low essence. A pretty stats dedicated Solar with a stunt and a full excellency, maybe some willpower in an emergency, can hit difficulty 9-10 fairly reliably. If you're letting the truly, utterly impossible tasks to happen at difficulty 10, then leaping from the ground to fly up to an airship flying high overhead is just the work of an Essence 1 dice adder and not an Essence 3 flight charm.

                Another is that there becomes little reason not to just go crazy with every roll. If you're infiltrating a palace and rolling to listen for guards on the other side of the door, difficulty 2, and you drop down 23 dice and double 8s on the roll, getting 14 successes, that's not a waste because you've just used sonar hearing to read the ink on the scrolls in the drawer of the satrap 5 stories above your head and can just leave now. Which also puts a ton of pressure on the ST when you have to think up some insane benefit for rolling 11 successes on a difficulty 1 lockpicking check.

                And for another it starts to muddy the identity of each type of exalt, and Solars in particular. For example, if you allow a Solar to, with a difficulty 10 roll, whisper into the wind and have it ride through the air to ears a mile away then that's no longer a cool unique thing that DBs can do with Wind Carried Words, it's something anyone exalt can do if they pump their linguistics exellency. The reason that this is even worse for Solars is because their feats often involve much less obvious and pure magic than something like WCW, and thus seem like their difficulty should be lower.

                Lets say there is a Dynast that's going to speak to her people, raising an army from her lands to go and carve a bloody path of conquest through neighboring kingdoms. You want to stop this but you don't have the chance to counter that speech with your own, they wouldn't let you get two words out before a fight started and scattered the crowds, and anyway you're a better dancer than a talker by far. So you sneakily convince her that you're part of a dance troupe and will perform before her speech to the people, and, somehow through dance, you're going to start a revolution.

                From a logic side of things, that would seem like a way easier difficulty roll than Wind Carried Words. You might set that at difficulty 6-7, since it's impossible by mortal standards, but it doesn't seem absurd. Actually though, that kind of emulates the charm Penultimate Unity of Form, which is an Essence 3 Solar charm and costs a willpower. So now that ability to do the impossible and make a beautiful dance to have the same effect as Charlie Chaplain's speech from the Dictator isn't an awesome thing that Solars get to do that sets them apart, it's something any exalt can do with an excellency and maybe a stunt or something.


                Incidentally, it's one of the reasons that I find Solars difficult to run, they just so easily blow past difficulty 5 that most difficulties are nearly meaningless to them. My experience with DBs is a lot better, but suffers a bit from the same problems even then. Thank god they don't get a million free excellencies...



                Anyway, everyone's game is different and can do whatever you want, but if you want a true idea of the scale of Exalted, I don't think you should be looking at successes and what they mean, because they might mean nothing. Look at charms like Titan-Straightening Method and Nine Aeons Thew, stuff like that lets you grab and throw monsters who are thousands of feet tall. See the sidebar on page 274 of the coreboook for that. Or Ephemeral Induction Technique, which lets you reach out and form a spirit out of nothing but her own will to birth a being into the world. Or how about Soaring Pegasus Style, which just straight up lets a Solar make a horse fly, that's the scale of Exalted.
                Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 06-22-2019, 04:39 PM.

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                • #23
                  So I'll have few answers here.

                  Originally posted by Epee102 View Post

                  Do you recall the exact context in Miracles? Difficult 5 isn’t a hard ceiling technically (combat and social interactions can get to 9-10) but otherwise, what your describing is a source of penalties, more than a difficulty increase.
                  I believe I'm respecting the intent of the system augmenting the difficulty instead of putting maluses. Indeed, the Corebook suggests increasing difficulties when there are situationnal complications and the number of successes required is not set by some static value. Examples given are that lockpicking is difficulty 1, and lockpicking at night is difficulty 2. If there was some sort of opposed roll I'd go for maluses, but here this is not the case I believe.

                  DrLoveMonkey : I mostly agree with you, but the thing is it asks a tremendous amount of work from the ST and from players to be on an even ground on what you could expect from successes only and from charms. To Solar in particular, since you noted they feel less "magical". My simple example would be Athletics : In the corebook, one of the example given is the one of running 3 days without stopping. At first I thought "Well it's weird I'd rather see it as a charm, it's obvious no human can do that", except well that after some googling there are apparently some people that did that ! But then, and without being nitpicky, you have many questions to solve concerning difficulties : Is running for 3 days straight in the cold of Hell difficulty 6 ? Is running for 20 days straight humanly impossible and thus can only be achieved only with charm ? Do I really want to answer my player who bought all the athletics charm as an Athletics Supernal "You just can't do it despite you buying every single charm about running, even the one where you are litteraly considered a battle group because you go so fast, because you didn't pay a charm that doesn't exist and let you run forever". What would be the damn design of such a charm ?

                  And this is only to question one of the most straightforward situation with one of the most straightforward ability of the game. I don't want to conceive my difficulties in the game by learning what all the charms in the game do and then deducing what players can do through successes alone.

                  I must say that most of the time I don't face questions so complicated during the game, and if I do I solve without too much problems. But from a pure design perspective, few guidelines on how to balance roll difficulties vs how you expect charms to solve problems would be very helpful.

                  The Wizard of Oz The first time playing Exalted, after coming from some editions of Mages where people are kinda powerful but not all too powerful, I must say the power of the Solars is not so easy to handle
                  Last edited by Chausse; 06-22-2019, 05:39 PM.

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                  • #24
                    I will try to answer each individually

                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    Is running for 3 days straight in the cold of Hell difficulty 6?
                    Running for 3 days straight in an icy hell would still be difficulty 5, but you now have to contend with the severe cold, which deals 1 bashing damage every hour that you sit in it, unless you make the (Stamina + Resistance) roll. By the book that's a difficulty 1 roll, but in more extreme environments it might be 2-3, or higher damage, or both. Considering that's a roll that you're making every hour you actually need quite a few dice to ensure that you won't die. The better way for a Solar to get around that is to just pick up a survival charm or two and just totally ignore that environmental hazard all together.

                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    Is running for 20 days straight humanly impossible and thus can only be achieved only with charm ?
                    Yes. Again, just by the rules I'm not saying anyone who wants to do it the other way is wrong and will have a bad time doing it, but feats beyond the abilities of the greatest mortals usually require a charm.

                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    Do I really want to answer my player who bought all the athletics charm as an Athletics Supernal "You just can't do it despite you buying every single charm about running, even the one where you are litteraly considered a battle group because you go so fast, because you didn't pay a charm that doesn't exist and let you run forever". What would be the damn design of such a charm ?
                    This is definitely something that can happen. Solars especially have hundreds and hundreds of charms, but even they don't have a charm for everything a character might want to do. For example there is no Solar linguistics charm that allows them to convey complex and complete information in one single symbol. Like imagine if just looking at the symbol for a radioactive hazard gave you an instantaneous and fairly comprehensive understanding of what neutron-gamma-alpha-beta ect. radiation was and the basics of how to protect yourself. Distance, lead shielding or thick stone walls in a pinch, stuff like that.

                    That really seems like a Solar charm, but as far as I know, there isn't one matching that description written down in any of the books. Even if it is somewhere and I missed it though, it could easily not have been. It is still a charm effect though, and it falls on the player and the ST to work out exactly how the charm will work before they take it.

                    It's just like if your player had taken all the running and feats of strength charms, but absolutely none of the jumping ones, and then wanted to attempt Mountain Crossing Leap style feats, or Eagle Wing Style ones. He's the flash for speed, and can hurl a stone tower over a mighty river, but leaping just isn't in his game. Which seems strange, and it's strange to me that they'd be so focused a character, but it's also strange how he has the power to crush a granite pillar with his bare hands, but if he has brawl and dex both at zero and one respectively he's not a good fist fighter. It's a bit of an oddity but that's how the game works.

                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    And this is only to question one of the most straightforward situation with one of the most straightforward ability of the game. I don't want to conceive my difficulties in the game by learning what all the charms in the game do and then deducing what players can do through successes alone.
                    The funny thing is, the straightforwardness and simplicity of your example is actually the part that's making it the most confusing, I think. Because if a player asked how many successes they'd need on a Dex + Melee roll to reach into their soul and pull forth a blade of pure sunlight (lets assume Glorious Solar Saber didn't already exist) then there would be no question, that isn't a roll, that's a charm. Running for 10 straight days without rest is just so almost barely kind of possible that it feels like maybe that doesn't need to be a charm, but it does.

                    Again again though, everyone should do what makes a good game for them, if you want to even go so far as to say that no charm but the excellency exists, and all charm effects are just difficulty levels and that works, then do that.


                    Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                    I must say that most of the time I don't face questions so complicated during the game, and if I do I solve without too much problems. But from a pure design perspective, few guidelines on how to balance roll difficulties vs how you expect charms to solve problems would be very helpful.
                    I absolutely agree, there's people a lot more experienced with Exalted than I am who have difficulties in this area.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post

                      I think some of the examples given (for example, the appendix removal) are bad examples though, tbh. It's better to think:
                      Challenging for an amateur, or easy but not effortless for a professional; difficulty 1-2
                      Challenging for a professional, or easy but not effortless for the world champion; difficulty 3-4
                      Challenging for the world champion; difficulty 5
                      Extremely difficulty for the world champion; difficulty 7 (but there's very little that's going to be this difficulty, yet actually still possible without magic)
                      I personally like the way that the game establishes difficulty 1 as a thing that is standard fare for somebody heroic, and scales up from there. Both for the manner in which it establishes a baseline for what kinds of things should even call for a roll, and general tone of the action. The way that I read it is that it's more concerned with the dramatic context of any given action.

                      I'm not really fond of the idea of tying conceptions of difficulties to skill levels because I like to emphasize the point that a character of any Attribute and Ability level is theoretically capable of achieving any difficulty. It emphasizes the point that heroism is not a matter of capability.

                      With spending Willpower, an exceptional stunt, and maybe one or two other circumstantial bonuses, a character with 1s in the relevant stats has a chance of rolling five successes. I think that's the one that should be focused on.

                      Originally posted by Sorcerous Overlord
                      21 successes would make First and Forsaken Lion stay his armies for a single day.


                      1: Good God, what has he done to get a Resolve of 20!

                      2: If those successes aren't pointed at an appropriate Intimacy, they can be five times as many and still be completely useless.

                      ...Unless it's a bargain action, which sounds more like something that would get such a short reprieve, in which case you don't really need that many successes, but you do need something valuable to give him.

                      In any case, the social system is one in which the basic difficulty system is kind of irrelevant, because difficulties are always always always the Resolve of the character whom you're trying to influence, and we've got a rather more firm system for what can be accomplished that is more concerned with intersecting characterisation and dramatic context rather than how high your numbers are.

                      In that way, interaction with the First and Forsake Lion, with a high prince of Hell, why even with the Unconquered Sun himself can be a more dynamic and interesting thing than just relying on rolling absurd numbers. You know, regular people can interact with these characters so long as they have the correct lever. And if they don't, then nobody is going to care no matter how charmingly it is expressed. There are random peasants of the hinterlands who will be unmoved by 21 successes and no complementary Intimacy or similar.

                      Your whole thing of everybody giving up swords? We have Intill and Persuade and (especially) Inspire actions to manage that in a coherent and accessible fashion.

                      (You can't convince rain to do anything without magic because rain doesn't have Intimacies, consciousness, or a capacity to defy gravity)

                      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey
                      Lets say there is a Dynast that's going to speak to her people, raising an army from her lands to go and carve a bloody path of conquest through neighboring kingdoms. You want to stop this but you don't have the chance to counter that speech with your own, they wouldn't let you get two words out before a fight started and scattered the crowds, and anyway you're a better dancer than a talker by far. So you sneakily convince her that you're part of a dance troupe and will perform before her speech to the people, and, somehow through dance, you're going to start a revolution.

                      From a logic side of things, that would seem like a way easier difficulty roll than Wind Carried Words. You might set that at difficulty 6-7, since it's impossible by mortal standards, but it doesn't seem absurd. Actually though, that kind of emulates the charm Penultimate Unity of Form, which is an Essence 3 Solar charm and costs a willpower. So now that ability to do the impossible and make a beautiful dance to have the same effect as Charlie Chaplain's
                      speech
                      from the Dictator isn't an awesome thing that Solars get to do that sets them apart, it's something any exalt can do with an excellency and maybe a stunt or something.


                      Ehhh, I don't think that's the best example. Regular Performance actions employing dance can't be as precise as that Solar Charm to make them cross-applicable, but one still has the option of Inspire actions to provide some manner of confusion or weaken their resolve to act. It's fantastical, but not explicitly magical; still within the range of the pulpy heroics that are the common dramatic fare of the system and setting.

                      A Solar Charm accomplishes one's ends through a superficially similar method with superior efficiency and precision. But stuff like that ought to be happening in the setting without the presence of the Exalted.

                      Sure dancing in front of an army is easier than Wind Carried Words, while that Charm can do things like carry sentiments and instructions to people that are very far away from you, which no form of heroic performance can accomplish at all.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                      • #26
                        Although, thinking more about it, I suppose there's not much harm in letting a regular action that rolled a massive number of successes accomplish something kind of beyond the usual scope of the system.

                        Because for one, you've definitely employed several Charms to become capable of that result in the first place, so it's already a bit magic.

                        And for another, it's surely not coming up that often.

                        It's like a working. Lots of things that can be done with spells can be achieved with workings, just far less efficiently or frequently. If you want to do it often and know where to learn it, you get the spell. If you want communicating with rain to be a thing you do rather than that thing you did once on your most blessed day, learn a Charm.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Ehhh, I don't think that's the best example. Regular Performance actions employing dance can't be as precise as that Solar Charm to make them cross-applicable, but one still has the option of Inspire actions to provide some manner of confusion or weaken their resolve to act. It's fantastical, but not explicitly magical; still within the range of the pulpy heroics that are the common dramatic fare of the system and setting.

                          A Solar Charm accomplishes one's ends through a superficially similar method with superior efficiency and precision. But stuff like that ought to be happening in the setting without the presence of the Exalted.
                          Oh Inspire certainly, I should have been more clear though I think. I was imagining more an instill action, one that might instill people with a particular and carefully worded intimacy, or perhaps even more than one over the course of the dance. Something like "Our current leaders never have our best interests at heart." and/or "I live by the happiness of my neighbor, not their misery." Which is I think beyond even the ability of the heroic mortals of the world of Exalted to convey with a dance alone.

                          I think it would be a lot more effective than most inspire actions. You could inspire them with calmness maybe, which would make them a bit sluggish and difficult to rouse to war, but it wouldn't make them suspicious of their leaders or aid you in sparking a bloody rebellion either.

                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Although, thinking more about it, I suppose there's not much harm in letting a regular action that rolled a massive number of successes accomplish something kind of beyond the usual scope of the system.

                          Because for one, you've definitely employed several Charms to become capable of that result in the first place, so it's already a bit magic.

                          And for another, it's surely not coming up that often.

                          It's like a working. Lots of things that can be done with spells can be achieved with workings, just far less efficiently or frequently. If you want to do it often and know where to learn it, you get the spell. If you want communicating with rain to be a thing you do rather than that thing you did once on your most blessed day, learn a Charm.
                          Yeah I was thinking of mentioning the same thing. It's really hard for a player to know beforehand that they want to do something so when it comes up it feels punishing to go "Well that would be really nice if you had a charm for that, it's just too bad you don't" especially when that's totally something their character would do if there was an available charm.

                          I would only worry about players eventually just relying on that when really they should be grabbing a lot of the charms that do that. So like maybe the first time or two you can get a legendary 8-10 successes and after an hour's treatment convert all the patient's aggravated damage to lethal, saving the day and somehow curing whenever poor Chernobyl victim has crossed your doctor's doorstep, but after that you should really consider getting Wound-Cleansing Meditation or Grievous Wound Alteration Energy.

                          Hmm, actually, a way to do that might be to go and look at available charms and see if you can't like, tone down what you're allowing to still make that a good option if you can. Like, maybe your medicine roll has a threshold difficulty of 5, and it converts a number of levels past that into lethal? That way even Grievous Wound Alteration Energy is still attractive.

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                          • #28
                            Suspicion is an emotion, I see no reason to believe someone couldn’t Inspire you with it.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                              I will try to answer each individually

                              Running for 3 days straight in an icy hell would still be difficulty 5, but you now have to contend with the severe cold, which deals 1 bashing damage every hour that you sit in it, unless you make the (Stamina + Resistance) roll. By the book that's a difficulty 1 roll, but in more extreme environments it might be 2-3, or higher damage, or both. Considering that's a roll that you're making every hour you actually need quite a few dice to ensure that you won't die. The better way for a Solar to get around that is to just pick up a survival charm or two and just totally ignore that environmental hazard all together.


                              Yes. Again, just by the rules I'm not saying anyone who wants to do it the other way is wrong and will have a bad time doing it, but feats beyond the abilities of the greatest mortals usually require a charm.


                              This is definitely something that can happen. Solars especially have hundreds and hundreds of charms, but even they don't have a charm for everything a character might want to do. For example there is no Solar linguistics charm that allows them to convey complex and complete information in one single symbol. Like imagine if just looking at the symbol for a radioactive hazard gave you an instantaneous and fairly comprehensive understanding of what neutron-gamma-alpha-beta ect. radiation was and the basics of how to protect yourself. Distance, lead shielding or thick stone walls in a pinch, stuff like that.

                              I absolutely agree, there's people a lot more experienced with Exalted than I am who have difficulties in this area.
                              We didn't understand each other completely I think, but I think you are mostly right in your answers so I'll pass quickly to lighten my points.

                              My first example was basically "Take a difficulty 5 roll and add some modifier in accord with the other difficulties presented to make it difficulty +1".

                              My second example was more like : I found out that some people could run for 2-3 days, but I think it might even be more. So is 5 of running a charm ? Is 6 days a Charm ? At what point does it become a charm ? But I guess it's a question every type of game has one way or the other, not specifically Exalted, and I should just go along the flow of the game and deal with it with the context when it happens.

                              But your answwers make sense and I think I'm trying to hard to solve problems that I actually deal with during my games without even realizing, so I should just keep going. I'll try the "No charm no inhuman action", because Excellencies makes you excellent, that is the best of what humans can do, but only of what humans can do, and I kinda like the idea of doing that as well.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                                I personally like the way that the game establishes difficulty 1 as a thing that is standard fare for somebody heroic, and scales up from there. Both for the manner in which it establishes a baseline for what kinds of things should even call for a roll, and general tone of the action. The way that I read it is that it's more concerned with the dramatic context of any given action.

                                I'm not really fond of the idea of tying conceptions of difficulties to skill levels because I like to emphasize the point that a character of any Attribute and Ability level is theoretically capable of achieving any difficulty. It emphasizes the point that heroism is not a matter of capability.

                                With spending Willpower, an exceptional stunt, and maybe one or two other circumstantial bonuses, a character with 1s in the relevant stats has a chance of rolling five successes. I think that's the one that should be focused on.

                                2: If those successes aren't pointed at an appropriate Intimacy, they can be five times as many and still be completely useless.

                                In any case, the social system is one in which the basic difficulty system is kind of irrelevant, because difficulties are always always always the Resolve of the character whom you're trying to influence, and we've got a rather more firm system for what can be accomplished that is more concerned with intersecting characterisation and dramatic context rather than how high your numbers are.

                                In that way, interaction with the First and Forsake Lion, with a high prince of Hell, why even with the Unconquered Sun himself can be a more dynamic and interesting thing than just relying on rolling absurd numbers. You know, regular people can interact with these characters so long as they have the correct lever. And if they don't, then nobody is going to care no matter how charmingly it is expressed. There are random peasants of the hinterlands who will be unmoved by 21 successes and no complementary Intimacy or similar.

                                I guess this is where different people have different expectations for the game !

                                I like the idea of the butcher warrior not being able to save his wounded friend at all because, no matter how heroïc he always proved to be, he never took the time to wonder if he would have to save someone instead of killing him. For me, "Not being able to do it no matter how hard you try" is also a very important source of drama, and I really like to use it during my games, not for everything of course, but enough when it is with the themes oh the character (interacting with his intimacies or against his intimacies"

                                The second point about the Social with intimacies was really the hardest to teach players that come from other games. I had so many times my players saying "I rolled 20 successes on presence !" and me answering "Congratulations that doesn't work", when you are not used to it players really have a hard time figuring it out, but I think it makes the system have really good social interactions

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