Excellencies are still considered Charms, yes?

[Shadowstripe]

Just wanted to be sure that the various Excellencies are still considered to be charms for the purpose of meeting non specific prerequisite charms for some Charms (such as the Lunars needing 4 Mental Attribute Charms to learn Terrestrial Circle Sorcery or Dragon-Blooded needing 4 Occult charms for the same thing).

I am asking since some Exalted types now get their Excellencies free and automatically when they meet specific requirements or receive specific slots (for lack of a better term) with which to purchase their Excellencies without using up their initial amount of Charms.

Just wanting to clarify my own understanding as the books don't seem to explicitly state that Excellencies are treated as Charms for meeting such prerequisites.

[Greyman]

From the Ask the Devs thread:

No. Unless you have to buy them like Dragon-Blooded do, Excellencies don't count as Charms for prerequisite purposes.

[wern212]

So, as Greyman said, it doesn't count for prerequisites except for the Dragon-Blooded. However, Excellencies are considered charms for gameplay effects, for example boosting your parry with an excellency counts as a defense that has been bolstered by magic, which is relevant in certain cases.

[Shadowstripe]

I wish I could agree with that ruling... but it seems to unfairly punish Exalt types simply because they get Excellencies easier than others. If they are treated as Charms for some Exalts in regard to prerequisites, then they should be treated as Charms for all or none can use them for prerequisites.

It is times like this when I like the Oricalcum Rule. If something doesn't work for you... change it (though to be honest, I would have done so even without the rule).

[Flare]

Dragonblooded excellencies are also more then just an excellency, so arguably they're a bit more then excellencies in some respects. That and them not being free together do sort of make Dragonblooded Excellencies a little differently.

[Iceblade44]

Yep, for example the DB archery Excellency does more then just add dice to the roll but allows you to sense the presence of alive and undead does which is something as a solar would be two charms

[Kell_Tamer]

Just a note, I asked Robert in the old Ask the Devs about if you have the occult excellency as one of your five DB freebies does it count to the four needed. He said yes as per this post.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...16#post1276016

[Jetstream]

I wish I could agree with that ruling... but it seems to unfairly punish Exalt types simply because they get Excellencies easier than others. If they are treated as Charms for some Exalts in regard to prerequisites, then they should be treated as Charms for all or none can use them for prerequisites.

It is times like this when I like the Oricalcum Rule. If something doesn't work for you... change it (though to be honest, I would have done so even without the rule).

How do you figure? Solars get excellencies for free. They pay zero xp for them. If a Solar has a four charm prerequisite, they have to buy four charms. If a DB has a four charm prerequisite, they have to buy four charms, which can include excellencies. Which, again, they must pay for.

If Solars got to count their excellencies, they’d be getting another leg up. They’re not being punished because they have to buy exactly the same number of charms as everyone else.

[The Wizard of Oz]

Yeah, the charm prereqs are designed this way; when they wrote the Solar charms that require, say, five charms from Ability X (very common in Integrity), they knew that excellencies wouldn't count.

Whereas when they wrote the DB charms (say, Terrestrial Circle Sorcery which requires four Occult charms... I'm not sure there actually are any other examples though?), they knew excellencies would count.

[Elfive]

Yeah, if they wanted excellencies to count, the number of required charms would be higher.

[JohnDoe244]

Corebook, page 254 (emphasis in original text):

"If a Charm designates a number
of non-specific prerequisite Charms, Excellencies
never count toward this total."

I like the ruling that non-free Excellencies are a specific exception to this rule.