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Dice pools for lying

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  • Chausse
    replied
    I didn't think to use it for this, I reallt thought that was questions to solve with the social system

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Oh, we use it all the time. Is this merchant trying to stiff me, is this diplomat dealing in good faith, is this guy in love with that girl, etc.

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  • Chausse
    replied
    That's really interesting, I never really had the opportunity to really use the Profile Character action, does anyone have a good story on how it was used in one of their game ? I just never remember it exists

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  • Kelly Pedersen
    replied
    Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
    Either I'd have her roll Manipulation+Presence at the officer's Resolve to instil a belief, or I'd have him roll Perception+Socialise vs her Guile to try and work out what her intentions are.
    The latter is precisely how I'd handle it - Read Intentions is a codified action to take, and covers discerning what a character wants to accomplish in a scene. That will cover "They're trying to deceive you about their real identity" nicely. If the officer was really suspicious, or wanted to get even more detail on who this "messenger" actually was, they could go for a profile character action, rolling (Perception + Investigation).

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanic View Post

    I think that RAI it doesn't cover all beliefs.
    That's what I thought, but then Eric Minton told me it was intended to cover beliefs in these circumstances.

    Originally posted by Lanic
    What would be a relevant intimacy here: Major Principle: "That random dude over there is totally a messenger. Nothing suspicious at all"? It should be Major, since giving a letter is a big deal.
    Yeah, so you instil a Minor Principle, and then need another action and the right Intimacy to build it to Major.

    Originally posted by Lanic
    This has very strange consequences. How would you then model, when the prince tells the officer "No, I don't know her "? Is it another social action? Under the assumptions that "She's a messenger" is a principle, that automatically destroys a principle and completely bypasses the rest of the system.
    I wouldn't model it at all if none of the players were there.

    Still, in the event that the idea is refuted by somebody in authority (who doesn't really need the social system to get subordinates to fulfill their general demands), I would say that the Principle for the belief vanishes immediately.

    That doesn't break anything, because it's an outlier. That's the Orichalcum Rule at work.

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  • Chausse
    replied
    I think guile is actually a good thing. I didn't think of it before, but roll Read intentions to "find what the character is trying to achieve in the scene" seems completely reasonable. I think I'll do that next time for my games.

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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanic View Post

    I think that RAI it doesn't cover all beliefs. What would be a relevant intimacy here: Major Principle: "That random dude over there is totally a messenger. Nothing suspicious at all"? It should be Major, since giving a letter is a big deal.

    This has very strange consequences. How would you then model, when the prince tells the officer "No, I don't know her "? Is it another social action? Under the assumptions that "She's a messenger" is a principle, that automatically destroys a principle and completely bypasses the rest of the system.
    I think it goes the other way. Instill a minor principal, "I am a trusted messenger."
    It would only be shot down by a major principle, "I have to check all messengers, because there has been false messages before."
    And the prince isn't going to tell the officer that he doesn't know the messenger, the prince is either going to be the target of the messenger's instill principal, or the prince is going to have the major principle of "Trust no-one that I do not personally know."

    And if those are the stakes you are playing for, your fake messenger should get shot down because his plan was an ill-conceived spur-of-the-moment shot that couldn't work anyway without some planning. If you have to be a known messenger to hand a letter over to the prince, then that is what you have to do.
    But if no-one has any intimacies about accepting letters, then a minor principal work just fine.

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  • Lanic
    replied
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    Instil actions cover Principles. Principles include things that a character believes.
    I think that RAI it doesn't cover all beliefs. What would be a relevant intimacy here: Major Principle: "That random dude over there is totally a messenger. Nothing suspicious at all"? It should be Major, since giving a letter is a big deal.

    This has very strange consequences. How would you then model, when the prince tells the officer "No, I don't know her "? Is it another social action? Under the assumptions that "She's a messenger" is a principle, that automatically destroys a principle and completely bypasses the rest of the system.

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  • Isator Levi
    replied
    Originally posted by Lanic View Post

    One of glaring omissions, almost surely intentional, is that there no skill responsible for lying and deception. In some cases, this can be reasonably represented by using standard social system framework. However, the whole system does seem to be aimed towards representing genuine persuasion.
    Performance encompasses oratory and rhetoric. Presence persuades through force of personality. Socialize uses decorum and etiquette to persuade or manipulate.

    To quote the book, "a thief blurts a convincing explanation for how she came into possession of a carved jade idol, all of these characters are using Presence".

    Originally posted by Lanic
    The messenger doesn't try to convince the officer to like her (although this might be potentially helpful), but to convince the officer of what is the matter of fact, so this is rather not an instill action.
    Instil actions cover Principles. Principles include things that a character believes.

    Originally posted by Lanic
    It could be persuade action. However, again it is not simply a matter of nudging the officer to pursue one course of action or another.
    I don't see how it isn't. You've stated that it's a matter of convincing somebody to give you a letter. You've even fulfilled the criteria of providing credible evidence to make the persuade action stick to the character's relevant Intimacy (I'm going to assume something to do with the general execution of their duties).

    Your mark being a grizzled veteran is just modelled by the quality of their Integrity/Resolve. Put it up a bit with a specialty, if that helps.

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  • Aoi Cobalt
    replied
    The only charm having to do with "tell you a lie and make you believe it" is in Performance. So Manipulation + Performance vs target's Resolve (because you are acting as the messenger, not trying to socially be accepted as one). And, of course, penalties for not looking or acting the part, increased difficulties for the officer's suspicions, etc.
    Most lying of this type you are acting as if you had the truth.
    This is a thing I had a problem with too, because I've had a Night caste who wanted to play the conman.

    And the officer can try to break down their story if they don't quite sell it. Charisma + Presence vs liar's Guile.
    Or just make it an opposed roll; Manipulation + Performance vs Charisma + Presence.

    And, as Isator Levi mentions, there's other kinds of lying too.
    Lying about paperwork? Bureaucracy.
    Lying to spread gossip (and not be know as the source)? Socialize.
    Last edited by Aoi Cobalt; 06-23-2019, 10:07 AM. Reason: Edit: I thought of more to say.

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  • The Wizard of Oz
    replied
    Either I'd have her roll Manipulation+Presence at the officer's Resolve to instil a belief, or I'd have him roll Perception+Socialise vs her Guile to try and work out what her intentions are.

    But either way, even if she fails/he succeeds, it shouldn't be "yep, she's definitely lying", it should be "hmmm, she seems untrustworthy and suspicious, something's not right."

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  • Lioness
    replied
    Which one's the player character?
    The more you roll dice as a Storyteller the more you're telling the players what's going on.

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