Lunar Anima Power clarification (3E)

[Shadowstripe]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but even if it has, I have no idea where to even look for it (my attempts at using Search have been... overwhelmingly unsuccessful).

The specific Anima Power I am trying to understand is the 1/day power for Full Moons. Basically, this power allows the Lunar to pay to roll join battle after their Initiative has been reset by landing a decisive attack. The question I have is this roll a normal Join Battle roll with a bonus of (highest physical attribute) non-Charm dice... or if it is just a Join Battle roll using only (highest physical attribute) non-Charm dice (not their usual Join Battle dice)?

The wording in the Lunar Backer-Access Manuscript is vague enough that I could see it interpreted either way. However, given the rather pricey cost for this power, I am inclined to interpret it as a normal roll with the bonus dice. Just wanting to see if this interpretation is the consensus or not.

[Flare]

Join Battle is specifically the reference to the (Wits + Awareness, add 3 successes), roll. You add the bonus to that.

I feel like for questions like this you can either do the 'ask a question, get an answer' thread or ask the devs if it's a bit more complex.

[Elfive]

I'm pretty sure that as a general rule if you re-roll join battle in the middle of a fight you don't add the three auto successes.

In this case they effectively come from the resetting to base anyway.

[Flare]

I'm pretty sure that as a general rule if you re-roll join battle in the middle of a fight you don't add the three auto successes.

In this case they effectively come from the resetting to base anyway.

Is that the case? I don't remember it but I don't deny it's possible.

[Shadowstripe]

The problem is that this is not a normal Join Battle roll... it is one created by a magical effect... which is why I am trying to clarify if a Full Moon would roll their usual Join Battle pool plus these dice or just the dice indicated (highest physical attribute dice as the pool). This would be similar to Charms that specify a specific type of roll with a specific non-standard pool of dice... such as a specific type of influence... say to instill fear using your highest negative Intimacy to make the roll with.

The wording used is vague enough to be interpreted as creating a specific non-standard pool with which to make a join battle roll with... since it doesn't actually say this is a bonus to the roll, just that they are non-Charm dice (which suggests that an Excellency could, in theory, be added to this roll).

Just because an effect says one makes a specific type of roll, it doesn't mean that the usual dice pool used to make that roll is always used. This effect could be one of those times when the Full Moon's anima is merely allowing the Lunar to use his highest physical attribute to increase his Initiative after he has made a decisive attack to regain a higher footing for his next attack... sort of to press his advantage if his attack wasn't as decisive as he had hoped. Thematically... I can see it playing out this way, but I wanted to make sure one way or the other.

I guess this is my fault for not clarifying exactly what I was trying to understand... basically is this power creating its own pool of dice to roll for Join Battle... or is it adding to the normal pool for Join Battle. The wording is a little vague as to which is intended.

[Elfive]

Oh, right.

No, it definitely means roll the standard wits+awareness pool, adding a (highest phys attribute) non-charm bonus. If it meant just roll the attribute it wouldn't say to roll join battle, it would just say "roll highest physical attribute and add successes as initiative".

[Shadowstripe]

Yeah... i'm inclined to interpret it that way, but it is vaguely worded so I want to be sure. I can see them using the term Join Battle to mean any roll that would add to one's initiative... most other places that discuss Initiative gains usually are adding a point or two directly, or an amount taken from an opponent... not rolling dice to add to it (at least I haven't seen any other instance, but with all the charms in the game... it isn't surprising).

It is one of those cases when the writers may mean a specific thing but word it in a way that is confusing... especially since I am going off of the rough manuscript rather than the finished book... which means that it could change.

Still... at this point I am leaning to a full Join Battle roll with bonus rather than a non-standard roll with just the dice provided (mostly because of the high cost this power has to activate).

[Alistair]

Yeah... i'm inclined to interpret it that way, but it is vaguely worded so I want to be sure. I can see them using the term Join Battle to mean any roll that would add to one's initiative... most other places that discuss Initiative gains usually are adding a point or two directly, or an amount taken from an opponent... not rolling dice to add to it (at least I haven't seen any other instance, but with all the charms in the game... it isn't surprising).

It is one of those cases when the writers may mean a specific thing but word it in a way that is confusing... especially since I am going off of the rough manuscript rather than the finished book... which means that it could change.

Still... at this point I am leaning to a full Join Battle roll with bonus rather than a non-standard roll with just the dice provided (mostly because of the high cost this power has to activate).

It is definitely intended to be a Wits + Awareness roll (Or Perception + Awareness, or whatever you roll Join Battle with according to your Charms and such), with a bonus. Anything that says "She rolls Join Battle, with (x) bonus dice" means that roll with a bonus.

[Shadowstripe]

It is definitely intended to be a Wits + Awareness roll (Or Perception + Awareness, or whatever you roll Join Battle with according to your Charms and such), with a bonus. Anything that says "She rolls Join Battle, with (x) bonus dice" means that roll with a bonus.

Except when the description provided says that it doesn't... and the wording provided in the manuscript is such that a strict Storyteller could say that the dice provided by the power is the pool used for the Join-Battle roll.

The exact wording is "roll Join Battle with (highest Physical Attribute) non-Charm dice." It technically doesn't say that these are bonus dice... and while I do agree that it would seem to suggest a normal Join Battle roll with bonus dice... there is still that nagging feeling that it might actually be saying that you only get the dice it says to roll with and apply the result as if it were a Join Battle roll.

If there is one thing I have learned in Exalted... it is never to assume what is intended if the wording isn't specific. This effect doesn't actually state a bonus to a roll, but suggests a roll with a specific pool of dice. More often than not, the wording is deliberate chosen.

Now... I think I will take the advice given above and ask this on the Ask a Dev thread... just to be sure I cover my bases before it becomes an issue in my game as to which interpretation is intended by the developers.

[Alistair]

Non-Charm already means these dice are added to the roll and do not count towards your limit. If it was just rolling it with that amount of dice, it would just say "Roll Join Battle using (Highest Physical Attribute) instead of the normal Attribute + Ability" or some such. It states to Roll Join Battle (aka Wits + Awareness) with (1-5) non-Charm dice (added to it), written as such in order to save wordcount.

[Whybover]

I find it likely that the wording to use "Join Battle" rather than specifying a pool is also in order to allow other Charms (and Evocations) to modify the effect. Rolling (Wits+Awareness) and adding the total to your initiative would not, for example, allow you to use the Perception JB Charm to replace Wits in the dice pool, nor would it proc other abilities that proc on Join Battle rolls.

[JohnDoe244]

Is that the case? I don't remember it but I don't deny it's possible.

Page 193:

"Join Battle is a (Wits + Awareness) roll. Count out the successes gained on this roll, then add three. This is your starting Initiative rating in the first round of battle."

My reading is that Join Battle is just Wits+Awareness. The first bolded sentence is what Join Battle means (without specific Merits/Charms/Etc.).

The second bolded clause determines your "starting Initiative rating in the first round of battle" (i.e. Join Battle successes plus three).

It is open to interpretation though.