Playing New Gods

[Eldagusto]

So is there anything wrong with making Gods or spirits playable, especially after we get a Gods book?

I mean we encouraged Raksha PCs but downplayed spirit PC.

I’m thinking by the time we get the Exingents book you could use the rules to reverse engineer god charms. Basically the big issue was always Gods tended to stagnate and grow indolent. But that wasn’t true for Elementals. And you could always be a Human recently uplifted to Godhood so you could have kept your human heart and spirit and emotions but have a divine body. Or be a brand new god, maybe even the child two potent gods, and you are just the rare type of god that seeks to grow and expand, perhaps because you lack an inherent Purview so you attach to an Exalted Circle.

Or you could even be a Spirit Created by the Circle. Maybe even using the Ghost or Body of a dead Circlemate as ingredients. Or a mortal family member.

I know we will get Exigents and that fits most of the concepts I had but just tossing something out there. After all apotheosis is achievable with Sorcery Worked upon you, but to get an Exigency Exaltation you have to be a lucky god.

I don’t see the harm in it. It would be a particularly useful option for Players that can’t make every game.

[Uknown DarkLord]

I would be all for it. The greatest thing that a player of a god/spirit would have to know is how restrictive their character would be. Where they are defined by the nature, along with their cult rating. I think a human uplifted or a spirit created by a circle might be easier and have more leeway.

But even for more traditional spirits, the player would grow their character by expanding their cult. If they have access to yu-shan then they might be able to gain a promotion. Or risk being censured by Celestial Lions.

[The Wizard of Oz]

I think the main issue is character advancement, since there's no "charm list" for gods.

A friend of mine plays an Elemental Dragon. It's not a game I play, so I'm not sure how well it works or what he spends XP on.

[YeOfLittleFaith]

I think a factor might be the expectation that each spirit is significantly more restricted in the things they can do or grow to do than the freedom an Exalt or even a Raksha has to grow within the boundaries of their magic. I don't think it's necessarily a good reason to not have playable spirits in and of itself, because it's not as if any one player character is going to be good or develop charms for everything, and I think especially with Exigents, homebrewers will feel more comfortable only writing the hypothetical charms for any Exigent they play that they expect to use, rather than a full charmset the size of one of the published exalts.

But for publishing a broadly usable splat with extensive character advancement options, spirits seem difficult. I suspect the Exigents book might be pretty useful to make individual playable spirits and other one-offs too, though.

[Uknown DarkLord]

I think the main issue is character advancement, since there's no "charm list" for gods.

And while having a charm list would be helpful, spirits don't learn charms like Exalts. They just have them to fulfill their purviews. Though they can learn Martial Arts, Sorcery or Necromancy like exalts; they cannot learn new charms really.

I mean, RoGD: Gods and Elementals puts custom spirit creation to have a number of charms equal to [(essence*2)+(cult*2)+(sum of virtues)]. So it is more limited to their nature.

[Baaldam]

And while having a charm list would be helpful, spirits don't learn charms like Exalts. They just have them to fulfill their purviews. Though they can learn Martial Arts, Sorcery or Necromancy like exalts; they cannot learn new charms really.

I mean, RoGD: Gods and Elementals puts custom spirit creation to have a number of charms equal to [(essence*2)+(cult*2)+(sum of virtues)]. So it is more limited to their nature.

I would be somewhat leery of using something that was always meant as quick-&-dirty tool in NPC creation as a literal basis to evaluate spirit capacities, evolution & limitations, honestly.

[Aoi Cobalt]

After thinking long about this, I'd have to say I wouldn't want to play such a game. You can make it work, and it might be fun, but the limitations of gods and elementals keep showing up.
Yeah, I can scheme in Yu Shan and have a political game, but being a scheming Dragonblood as the Houses edge towards civil war sounds more exciting.
As an elemental, I get powers associated with my element, but that just really makes me a cut-rate Dragonblooded.
And Dragonblooded, some Lunars, and Solars are going to show up to stuff me back in the box they think I belong in; and they have the power to do it too!
It doesn't sound like it would be a bad-wrong thing to play, but there are more powerful options doing the same sort of things out there now with exalts.

On the other hand, an elemental that gets ahold of a stolen Exigent power... that might be a nifty story!

[HamSandLich]

New gods as an extension of a heroic mortal game appeals to me, though it may run into problems where godhood is a "2e Shintai/Devil Tiger equivalent" that makes starting play seem like an extended slog to get where you actually want to be. The Celestial Bureaucracy is in tatters, newly ascended gods probably aren't going to get welcoming parties so there's still an element of unexpectedness as the players work to seize or build a purview for themselves. It'd probably be like a Solar game on "hard mode", since newbie gods are going to crumple under Immaculate DBs.

Mechanics wise, i don't see why it wouldn't work if one homebrews up some spirit charms, i'm reminded of an anecdote about Gary Gygax letting someone play a Balor. The Exigents book is supposed to have plenty of charm design advice, so that might help.

[MoroseMorgan]

Although I think it hasn't fully made it in to text yet, but from what we've gleamed from Dev commentary, I'm thinking this is even more doable in 3e.

Gods aren't presented as some automatic function of Creation anymore. With Little Gods basically going away, it plays into spirits being much more personable and mythic in their origins. I mean, just look at the spirits in Fajad.

Gods are poised to be so much cooler this edition, and I really hope that the teased Gods and Religions book gets the greenlight.

[Eldagusto]

As mentioned I imagined it as playing a spirit in a group that’s a mixed circle, which I imagine would alleviate a lot of the issues. And I imagine Sorcery would be useful for expanding ones Purview. Sorcery, Martial Arts and custom charms provide a lot of options. And if you are a unique spirit created by Sorcery that is comparable st first to a 2nd Circle Demon you have a lot of leeway for potential.

[Uknown DarkLord]

And if you are a unique spirit created by Sorcery that is comparable st first to a 2nd Circle Demon you have a lot of leeway for potential.

Definitely. It is the sorcery and martial arts that the spirit character is really going to expand himself in.

Something that might be entertaining would be a spirit version of carnal spirit rending. But make it so you devour their portfolio and domain. So that for a time, say until Yu-shan can direct a replacement entity to take on the fallen's post, the spirit character is able to affect the domain of the fallen spirit like he was that spirit.

So say you kill and devour Uvanavu, you gain his personal charms over health until yu-shan assigns a replacement.

But...maybe that is overpowered.

[Eldagusto]

I can see a sorcerously Created spirit having something akin to Hantha’s devouring power, so that could work.

2nd ed Gods couldn’t learn new charms without a promotion but we don’t know how 3rd ed works do we?

But Demons and Elementals could always learn new charms with growth. And a sorcerously Created spirit that is neither god or elemental or demon should have rather nebulous limits.

They won’t have all the potential to learn charms for every skill like exalts but few Exalts dip into being good at everything. So just say you have the capacity to develop powers in the direction your interested in only, no need to develop charms in areas you won’t be competent in.

Become god of the Circle. And if you want to expand your Purview perform a sorcerous working to mutate you in that direction.

[Baaldam]

As an elemental, I get powers associated with my element, but that just really makes me a cut-rate Dragonblooded.

Only if you think the end-all, be-all of their characterization and roleplaying opportunities are in their powers (that might be said, could among other things explore some aspects of elemental associations we see more of in artifacts or hearthstones than DB charms, on a little aside), what i don't think is quite the case. Through elementals you can play as:

- Members and heirs of races old beyond measure. Before men, before beasts, and some say before even the gods, elementals have stalked Creation, birthed into the world from the interplay of the world’s natural energies. Allies, enemies, lovers, rivals, sworn-kin or more to Dragon Kings, Jadeborn, Lintha and a number of the strange beings inhabiting still in the shores of the Dreaming Sea or in hidden places below the earth, sea, over the clouds and others besides.

- The ingenue or alien being, more ignorant of the ways of mortal and spirit society than the most fresh-faced of peasants, as alien as in its own ways as demons or raksha from beyond the Creation and yet connected and resonant with its nature and primal forces in an intrisic and personal not even the gods are. Beings that may find themselves in the role of beast, plant, hero, villain, god or devil in time, either cast on it by circunstances and the teachings (or manipulations) of others, carving a niche of their own from will and their experiences, or a mix of both. In that they can find themselves in a place similar but yet different from the recently exalted, as no memories of past lives, patron deity or religious tradition is (supposed) to guide or inspire them.

(In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the first exposure of many elementals to the idea of themselves as divine or at least supernatural was through the perspective, first contacts and interaction with mortals, what in itself may bring an interesting twist and angles to their variegated stories)

- Forces of nature and myth given form. Be a child born from a giant peach, fiery-eyed men & women sprang fully formed from the ember-fangs of a dying bonfire that roared as a dragon, a woman formed of the echoes of a young man screaming his sorrows at love lost/rejected in a interesting time and place, if auspicious or unauspicious, who can say. Storm fronts, forest fires, earthquakes, mudslides, deep ocean currents, lightning strikes and blizzards, the heat-haze of the desert and the crushing force of the avalanche are their careless unresponsive deadbeat parents of sorts. No exalt can be that.

- Living, breathing fruits of a sorcerer's will. Freshly born spirit child whose first act is to either rebel/reject or accept thralldom under its maker. Those particular elementals, originated from the sorcerer's knowledge, ignorance, desires and fancy as much as the elements themselves, may become even more idiosyncratic due to both their origins and their experiences through the period of servitude to the one who molded them. Some may reflect already existing races because it's what the sorcerer needed or wanted, others unique due to combination of desires conscious & unconscious, experimentation and/or a lack of attention/focus in all details or other motives – and if they will stay forever that way or develop through desire or happenstance into the seed of new races, that can be a hook to many tales, i guess.

This process also brings to mind for me images of "matter given form and life", what in itself opens room for one to play with concepts such as the faulty or mistreated creation that turns on its creator like Frankenstein's monster or Prague's Golem, a person made as ideal partners for their makers or others (Galatea, Nephele,Bride of Frankenstein), some sort of weird riff on Adam (Lilith) & Eve, FMA's homunculi or whatever shenaningans one feels like out of the "designer people/monster" angle.

And Dragonblooded, some Lunars, and Solars are going to show up to stuff me back in the box they think I belong in; and they have the power to do it too!

Or they might not, it's not always an auto-trump situation. +1-2 Might can be a handicap but doesn't have to be a game-breaker.

Definitely. It is the sorcery and martial arts that the spirit character is really going to expand himself in.

Something that might be entertaining would be a spirit version of carnal spirit rending. But make it so you devour their portfolio and domain. So that for a time, say until Yu-shan can direct a replacement entity to take on the fallen's post, the spirit character is able to affect the domain of the fallen spirit like he was that spirit.

So say you kill and devour Uvanavu, you gain his personal charms over health until yu-shan assigns a replacement.

But...maybe that is overpowered.

Well, that tricks hits a little too close to the portfolio of one certain forbidden god in Rathess, so i would call for a tithe of sorts at minimum. And Han-tha usually charges in flesh.


But now more seriously, well, i think the fandom makes far more of a deal of "spirits don't usually evolve" than it was ever supposed to be.
"Gods change when its narratively appropriate" is more of a convenient narrative conceit to avoid "millenia-old immortal has every skill maxed and all tricks in the book" syndrome and a setting where every spirit that remembers the Usurpation has to be an Ess4+ monster than anything. Raksha have pretty much the same conceptually and yet had XP costs & etc in previous editions - just tweak from there and you should be fine, has worked wonderfully for years for me.

[Eldagusto]

Wow see Baaldam get it! You were the one that suggested the rule that Elementals that Sorcerers create get added to the Universal templates right? Good rule.


And what about Divine Panoplies, are they still a thing? I should ask in the ask the dev thread. But Evocations could be a unique source of power for spirits and due to their nature I would imagine they are more easily able to have non combat Evocations then mortals as they are tied to their Panoplies and they are symbolic of the spirit. But 3rd ed concentrated on Artifacts made for the Exalted, so I don’t know if they will still be a thing. The Gods seem to replace the concept of an Artifacts spirit and their Panoplies seem to be an extension of themselves. Though they could still probably use Acquired Artifacts quite handily!

[Iceblade44]

Yeah that's probably a question for the devs since I've heard nothing about panoplies this ed