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What is stopping your Circle from Creating their own Exalts?

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  • What is stopping your Circle from Creating their own Exalts?

    So whats stopping a Circle, by this I mean specifically the Player Circle, from creating their own Exalted? Be it One off Exalts or even a Batch like Rakan Thulio did, that's the big catch with Exalted the PCs are supposed to have the agency to achieve the greatest of Goals, they even gave systems in the past to replace the Incarna or Primordials. So why not make your own Exalts? Its got to be easier for a group dedicated to a unified purpose compared to a rogue elder. So Five Exalts of varied capabilities, over time they even create Spirit servants and bind Demons and Elementals. Eventually you create an N/A Artifact and some Solar Circle Workings.

    Hells I'd imagine there could be some Exalts from the 1st Age who were Created by the Lords of Creation, or even Secret Exalted Created by Exalted in the Heat of the Primordial War!

    I mean besides the Meta issue of making your own mechanics and charms it feels like a fun goal to have, and its the type of goal that once you achieve it helps you achieve other goals. And if someone Dies you can even have them Play one the Circles own Exalted Creations.

    Any Ideas? I can imagine using even the soul of a deceased Circle Member could be a good Prima Materia. Or even say unifying that soul, with all the past souls who played host to the Exaltation.

    What are some ideas for Projects of this nature? How high would you put your goals? Start with one offs, or make self replicating ones like Dragonblooded, or even creating the Exaltation wholesale like Alchemicals? Lots of cool idea. You could uplift an animal into a humanoid Exalted! The Uplifted Exalted could be fun.


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Well, for one thing Thulio didn't create the Getimians, he found their Exaltations. Their actual creator(s) are currently unknown.

    Per what Vance has said in Ask the Devs, creating Exalted requires a certain singular and numinous nature; the Incarnae, the Primordials, the 'dark mother', the Wyld entity that creates the Dream-Souled, they all have that nature. So, can the Exalted attain that nature? And if so, how?

    Then there's the matter of the Law of Diminishment; creating Exalted has a permanent cost, and you will be lessened afterwards. Creating Exalted is not done casually or on a whim. There was a reason to do this: what was it? What demanded the creation of new Exalted? What was worth the price?
    Last edited by marin; 07-09-2019, 04:44 AM.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by marin View Post
      Well, for one thing Thulio didn't create the Getimians, he found their Exaltations. Their actual creator(s) are currently unknown.

      Per what Vance has said in Ask the Devs, creating Exalted requires a certain singular and numinous nature; the Incarnae, the Primordials, the 'dark mother', the Wyld entity that creates the Dream-Souled, they all have that nature. So, can the Exalted attain that nature? And if so, how?

      Then there's the matter of the Law of Diminishment; creating Exalted has a permanent cost, and you will be lessened afterwards. Creating Exalted is not done casually or on a whim. There was a role reason to do this: what was it? What demanded the creation of new Exalted? What was worth the price?
      Well I also take it they need to just incorporate the singular Numinous nature, IE discover such a being/a way to apply it to help you. Like discovering a Shinma Platonic Ideal of Heroism, or Immortality, or Villainy. Exigents seem to work like that, where Sol Incarnate fashioned the Divine Flame and the individual gods empower them.

      And yes the Law of Diminishment is my favorite part! What I ponder is how to apply it, maybe if you make one Exalt who can die and vanish then it maybe weakens you like an Odinsleep situation or a permanent Exalt cripples the Exalted who made them, or if you create a new type and a Batch of them you even cripple your Exaltation, I know its a holy cow but I am fine with concepts like shattering an Exaltation. And maybe you can spread the Law of Diminishment with everyone involved so the whole Circle and their Familiar Pantheon are Crippled, after all to make Exigents the Sun was Diminished and the Gods who use it to Exalt are Diminished. Maybe they can do a similar two stage diminishment where they are diminished in creating the potential Exalts and then the Exalting/Manifesting of them Diminishes whoever is involved in this second stage.

      And if they really need to they can create a Singular Numinous being, I always loved the Idea of Exalted Making Baby Primordials.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        I loath the Law of Diminishment. Oddly for the exact opposite reason I dislike most of the rest of 3E's take on Exaltation: it's too material and scientific. It's trying to answer 'why didn't they just make infinite exalts?' logically, rather than just allow the act of Exaltation to be inherently mythic, and thus requiring great mythic deeds. All you need to say is 'making more Exalted would be really frecking tough' and you're pretty much golden. The Incarna could try and make more Chosen, but it'd be tough (doubly so without Autochthon), no guarantee it'd work even for them and why bother when they each have their current chosen host?

        By that same token, I don't have an inherent problem with PCs trying to make their own Exaltations, though with the game as it stands I kind of do? It's the principle of The First Age Was a Different Genre; this is the sort of crazy epic thing that IMO should be in the playspace of E6-10 charms. And not only do we not have that, we don't have an easy way to build up to that with the system as it stands. If you're okay with saying that an E5 Solar should be on the same playing field as the greatest of the gods, then I guess just 'N/A project' is fine. It doesn't really break anything: by that point you're already making powerful creatures and servents. You can summon 3rd circle demons, make critters via sorcerous workings, build the Five Metal Shrike or a Thousand Forged Dragon. An Exaltation isn't that much of a step up in power terms, more in thematics.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
          It's trying to answer 'why didn't they just make infinite exalts?' logically...
          Eh, not really.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
            Eh, not really.
            If you've got an alternate rationale, Count, I'd love to hear it. It's how it always read to me, and I dislike it on those grounds. Exaltation should be transcendent, great and miraculous. The LoD makes it feel more like a straight power up 'These guys took some of their power and gave it to you'.

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            • #7
              Elohim asking Abraham to sacrifice his son was always my favourite account of a scientific development.

              Xipe Totec flaying his skin to bestow food upon humanity, periodically repaid by offering the removed skins of captives, less so; twas always a bit too corny for my tastes.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
                If you've got an alternate rationale, Count, I'd love to hear it.
                Sure.

                Not every introduction of a detail is intended to answer a question.

                ​I ate ramen noodles twenty hours ago, and a fried egg four hours ago; did I suspect you were the least bit curious about my diet prior to saying that? Of course not.

                Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
                It's how it always read to me...
                Okay, but consider that maybe sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar?

                Back on topic...

                ​To answer the OP, the reason I've never been part of a Circle that made Exalts is twofold.

                One, the thought never occurred to them.

                ​Two, if it did, they'd probably come to the conclusion that creating autonomous free-willed powerful beings and expecting them to do things for you, has a bit of a bad track record, across Creation's history.
                Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 07-09-2019, 06:25 AM.

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                • #9
                  On the subject of the thread, it has been stated by the devs that the creation of Exaltation is something not easily achieved- and by not easily, I mean almost practically impossible. Currently, the only entities to manage to preform the miracle are the Incarnae, a Primordial, the Five Elemental Dragons, the Dark Mother, the Wyld thing which created the Dream-Souled and a Voice in a Trench (as well as whatever the patron of the Getimians may be). Even the Abyssals and the Infernals are basically corrupted forms of existing Exaltation, instead of newly formed ones birthed by their patrons directly.

                  Now, the power gap between those entities and practically anything else is enormous- even demons of the Third Circle, the high gods of Heaven, Lesser Elemental Dragons and the Deathlords couldn't produce an Exaltation by their own right. The whole reason that Exigence exists is to allow for gods such as Ahlat, which is among the stronger gods of creation, to create Chosen for themselves without a utter self destruction and still failing in the mission. Corrupting an existing Exaltation seems to require less raw power, but it still requires something more than average to preform the act.

                  So in short, while not outright impossible (it is Exalted, after all), cultivating spirits to reach the point they could create Exalts of their own, or forcing a patron of Incarnae-level power to do so against their will (note that finding one such entity in the first place would be the main issue, as such entities don't grow on trees after all and are quit rare) is far from an easy feat, not to mention that, as mention above, those Exalts would not be forced to obey you usually. That would be a material for an whole adventure, which has many places where it could go horribly wrong and many much better alternatives.

                  As for the Law of Diminishment, I must say that while I do like the concept, I do have certain troubles with the name. I mean, just stating that the act of creating an Exaltation requires a great cost to preform which could not be easily recovered, if at all, does feel "mythic" to me. But calling it "the Law of Diminishment" turns it from an heroic act from the god's part into "just a mechanism by which nature works". Kinda like how Coulomb's Law turns the miracle of lightning into just a product of electrons discharging through a medium.


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                  • #10
                    Currently creating exaltations seems strictly "a thing that doesn't really happen", and I'd like to keep it that way.

                    Be ready for your players to basically turn themselves into unplayable entities and/or cause a small apocalypse in the process, for nothing less would be able to do it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      it feels like a fun goal to have
                      Does it? What kind of gameplay does it entail?

                      I mean, okay, fine, I get that it's you asking us, but well, I certainly can't think of an answer. It seems very naval gazing rather than something that can be organically incorporated into play and the kind of storyline progression that seems most suited to a tabletop game.

                      Originally posted by LostLight
                      But calling it "the Law of Diminishment" turns it from an heroic act from the god's part into "just a mechanism by which nature works".


                      How does this square with the fact that the term "law" and its equivalents in various other languages were things first applied to concepts of human relations and religious proscriptions?

                      Setting aside any specific religious beliefs, is the Law of Moses a mechanism of nature?

                      Originally posted by LostLight
                      Kinda like how Coulomb's Law turns the miracle of lightning into just a product of electrons discharging through a medium.


                      Hmm, I'm pretty sure that's what lightning was before... life existed.

                      Coulomb was trying to describe a phenomenon that actually exists, not compose an artistic narrative.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
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                      • #12
                        Succeeding in Creating/Discovering a new Exalt sounds like the opposite of naval gazing to me. It can be a whole chronicle in and of itself, incorporating everything from tracking down an unknown Primordial and learning from them, and plumbing the depth of Creation's mysteries, dissecting Exaltations using Lytek's Panoply or reading Jupiter's secret Journal.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Synapse View Post
                          Currently creating exaltations seems strictly "a thing that doesn't really happen", and I'd like to keep it that way.

                          Be ready for your players to basically turn themselves into unplayable entities and/or cause a small apocalypse in the process, for nothing less would be able to do it.
                          I mean having a Circle go against the Empress in her prime seems to be a thing that doesn't happen but I think that would be a keen thing I would like to tell the story of as well.

                          And either Creating your Own Exalted is a culminating point to capstone a Chronicle and becoming something Gnarly, or its not and its a late game point where you involve yourself in something grander then any one member of the Circle. If you are creative you don't need to be so cooky cutter as Become the Sun or a Primordial to Create an Exalt. All the new Exalts are a mystery, involve yourself in a new mystery. You don't need to be as purely paint by numbers as proscribed in the books.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #14
                            Because my players are far more concerned with the personal stories and ambitions of their characters, and their so their characters reflect these goals and drives.

                            The Exalted exist for an interesting reason, sure, but this reason is out there partly because we need a reason for the the folks we're playing to exist.

                            Maybe you or your players feel like they absolutely want to spend their time mucking about in the metaphysical nuts and bolts of the setting, but to me this whole premise seems contrary to telling an interesting, human story.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Janissary87 View Post
                              Because my players are far more concerned with the personal stories and ambitions of their characters, and their so their characters reflect these goals and drives.

                              The Exalted exist for an interesting reason, sure, but this reason is out there partly because we need a reason for the the folks we're playing to exist.

                              Maybe you or your players feel like they absolutely want to spend their time mucking about in the metaphysical nuts and bolts of the setting, but to me this whole premise seems contrary to telling an interesting, human story.

                              See now isn't this the type of Patronizing comment some people would get punished for? This is a very poorly veiled slight but I'll bet there will be no consequence for it and it won't be acknowledged as an attempt to goad a reaction. Yet I'll point it out.

                              You can make a chronicle about anything, and Creating your own Exalted clearly would not be only that, Every chronicle has more then one thing going on. A modern Prometheus wasn't just about creating life, Victor had Friends and loved ones like Henry Cleval and Elizabeth. Its insincere to suggest these things wouldn't exist just because you are achieving a goal. Do friends, loved ones, relationships, curse and what not not exist if your characters are warring against the Realm, or Finding Zen Mu, or Rest in Peacing a Deathlord?


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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