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Cup boils over, does this charm see use?

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  • Cup boils over, does this charm see use?

    P 327 core.
    I’m sure this has been asked before but, like in what circumstance would any player or NPC use this charm?
    Short of a CtD-Style Autumn person, what character could be described as having absolutely no Intimacies? How would you even go about deciding that a character’s Intimacies are Unintelligibly Abstruse?

    Is it Just there for STs to dunk on players that try to ignore or game the Intimacy system?

    Even if a (presumably Linguistics Supernal) PC set about systematically eroding all of a character’s Intimacies and actively prevented them from being exposed to any new minor ones... doesn’t that kind of defeat the intention?
    Like “haha you’re so boring this letter straight up murdered you” doesn’t really have the same sting if the target was actively conditioned into being that boring...?

    I just can’t see a use-case at all, has anyone seen it actually hit the table?

  • #2
    Well there are also charms that temporarily nullify negate an intimacy to use them. I'd kind of figured it could be applied to someone who'd burned all their intimacies would potentially be vulnerable as well. Forgotten Blade's evocations might also create a situation where those a target has intimacies towards are excised from the target's mind and thus potentially open them up for the letter. Though this plan operates on the idea that the target is significantly harder to kill than their ties.

    I'd honestly think the trigger of "unintelligibly abstruse" would be the more common one for a victim to be vulnerable by. Still be hard to figure out a case where it might come up if the target has a good number of intimacies and such.

    I won't say its useless, but it does strike me as an overly specific tool. Probably meant for a combination of being a counter for characters designed without the intimacies and to deal with potential issues of something like an ST porting Michal Meyers or something into the game with the old, "Oh yeah you can't reason with it because it only cares about killing, and it can't be deterred from killing you or the like because its only killing you due to seeing you all, but it refuses to let anything its deemed a target escape with its life." kind of deals.

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    • #3
      Pretty sure this is a joke Charm that's supposed to counter hypothetical "socially untouchable" characters that sometimes come up in forum discussions.

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      • #4
        I would guess it's an interesting attempt to implement a story trope - the Count of Monte Cristo-esque revenger who isolates his enemy socially, then destroys him emotionally through a devastating speech. But I think few players would ever want to be themselves the victim of it, or would want to victimize someone else with it, and few STs would feel comfortable subjecting a player to such, even if they were intimacy-less. And whether that should trope ever obtain expression in mechanics as a Charm is also questionable.

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        • #5
          Yeah, it's a dumb charm and actively persuaded me against playing a Linguistics Supernal.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Morangias View Post
            Pretty sure this is a joke Charm that's supposed to counter hypothetical "socially untouchable" characters that sometimes come up in forum discussions.
            I wouldn't call it a joke charm, because I think it genuinely exists because someone somewhere will use it in an amazing story. However, it's very situational and doesn't really see use.

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            • #7
              My Sunday group’s got a Linguistics Supernal PC, but she hasn’t taken the Charm yet.

              I’d argue that a Socialize-heavy character like my Eclipse should also be afraid of it, since they can suppress their real Ties and Principles or even give themselves a set of bogus Intimacies in the name of “getting into character.”

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Croakamancer View Post
                Yeah, it's a dumb charm and actively persuaded me against playing a Linguistics Supernal.
                That charm is requisite for nothing, and thus completely ignorable.

                You have no idea how much fun you're missing, Linguistics Supernal is incredible fun, Twisted Words Technique being only one of the reasons.

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                • #9
                  I feel like it would be better-placed in Abyssal Linguistics, coupled with charms that can aggressively erase someone's intimacies and will to live (so "attack their intimacies, then make them kill themselves when they have nothing left to live for" becomes a valid Abyssal build-around tactic.)

                  It doesn't fit Solars well thematically, which is why it's weak for them. Like, it's notionally something they can do, sure, but they're not going to have an entire clearly-supported strategy built around it.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                    I feel like it would be better-placed in Abyssal Linguistics, coupled with charms that can aggressively erase someone's intimacies and will to live (so "attack their intimacies, then make them kill themselves when they have nothing left to live for" becomes a valid Abyssal build-around tactic.)

                    It doesn't fit Solars well thematically, which is why it's weak for them. Like, it's notionally something they can do, sure, but they're not going to have an entire clearly-supported strategy built around it.
                    I like the way you think, Aquillion.

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                    • #11
                      Is Cup Boils Over un-thematic for Solars while its prerequisites Voice-Caging Calligraphy and Mind-Swallowing Missive are, or are all equally unthematic or thematic?

                      If Voice-Caging Calligraphy and Mind-Swallowing Missive are thematic, what would fall as a thematic progression for them which is not akin to Cup Boils Over?

                      Talking of theme, I could argue you could find it easier to imagine for Sidereals as an Endings Charm, if you take the text literally that it makes a character's soul rejoin the cycle of Lethe and rebirth; it fits with the Endings' theme of endings as a part of a cycle of rebirth and catharsis. A bit of Abyssal magic that was akin would be about disrupting the cycle of things and giving rise to ghosts and chaining a soul to the underworld, out of its proper place, I would think.

                      For Solars an instantaneous ending effect perhaps seems a bit too Endings / Abyssal, but a literal "poison pen" effect of slow passing on might work...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wern212 View Post
                        I wouldn't call it a joke charm, because I think it genuinely exists because someone somewhere will use it in an amazing story. However, it's very situational and doesn't really see use.
                        Pretty sure someone, somewhere had used 2e's Swallowing Darkness Charms in an amazing story. Doesn't change the fact that they were joke Charms

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                        • #13
                          Cup Boils Over feels like it should descend from a similar but less incredibly niche Charm, either as a separate Charm or as an upgrade that kicks in later.
                          What the less niche Charm would be, I'm not sure.


                          Abyssals: Whom Death Has Called, a PEACH-as-heck attempt to make an Abyssal 3E holdover.

                          Where I try to make Artifacts. When I finish them I'll probably post them in the Artifact Workshop thread so people can help me hammer them into shape.

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                          • #14
                            I would totally be down with it as an Abyssal charm, and i’d Think it would have prereqs that would assist in creating the final effect, Intimacy degrading and Resolve sapping.

                            Edit: turns out Forgotten Blade doesn’t work that way. People still have their Intimacies, they just can’t recognise their body or call them to mind. You could make an argument for it opening up CBO but it seems thin.

                            Like yeah, almost any high-essence charm Can be used as the flourish of a convoluted plan, but ideally they could also be useful charms?

                            It did also occur to me that if you’re targeting anyone with some degree of Resolve boosting (ie presumably anyone that falls into the trying to game the system camp), you’re pretty likely to fail on your first attempt. After which they would presumably have their mail vetted. But then you could use twisted words...

                            Except even then, attempted murder is more than enough reason for a minor Intimacy of fear or hate towards the murderer, which negates the charm completely.
                            Last edited by Maseiken; 07-22-2019, 05:40 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Maseiken View Post
                              I would totally be down with it as an Abyssal charm, and i’d Think it would have prereqs that would assist in creating the final effect, Intimacy degrading and Resolve sapping.

                              Edit: turns out Forgotten Blade doesn’t work that way. People still have their Intimacies, they just can’t recognise their body or call them to mind. You could make an argument for it opening up CBO but it seems thin.
                              Was thinking more on the memory excising gambits the blade causes. It does note that if a person is removed by the gambit the intimacies don't get removed, however I would think its a decently solid case if a person's intimacies are all tied towards things the victim can't attach them. Though the proxy strikes of "To Fall Unmourned" is still decently useful on that front owing that it will wipe everyone else's memories unless the person with an intimacy pays willpower.

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