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Can a monstrance of celestial portion capture a solar exaltation?

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  • Can a monstrance of celestial portion capture a solar exaltation?

    Assuming the solar trapped inside is killed, i mean. Given that it is based on the jade prison

  • #2
    I guess so. I don't think there are any written rules about them, I hope there never will, but an artifact similar to the jade prison should be able to contain one.

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    • #3
      It seems to me as far as I remember, that if you broke the Solar in a monstrance and he turned to an Abyssal, the exaltation was now an Abyssal exaltation connected to that monstrance.

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      • #4
        But if you didn't break the Solar... Well, you have to have the thing open to kill him. If you rigged it to kill him while it's closed or starved him... Technically? It flies off as soon as you open the thing but until then you can sit on an Exaltation

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        • #5
          I think you need a monstrance that is not bound to an abyssal exaltation first.

          There is an example on page 43 of MoEP: Abyssals of the Bodhisattva converting a solar to an Abyssal.

          But nothing says that the monstrances themselves corrupt the actual exaltation. I think the Neverborn corrupted the first Abyssal exaltations and tuned them to the monstrances. Cause the process of conversion involves torture by the deathlord, in breaking them, and the Solar can choose to die.

          So I think if a solar dies in a monstrance that its exaltation goes free.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Uknown DarkLord View Post
            I think you need a monstrance that is not bound to an abyssal exaltation first.

            There is an example on page 43 of MoEP: Abyssals of the Bodhisattva converting a solar to an Abyssal.

            But nothing says that the monstrances themselves corrupt the actual exaltation. I think the Neverborn corrupted the first Abyssal exaltations and tuned them to the monstrances. Cause the process of conversion involves torture by the deathlord, in breaking them, and the Solar can choose to die.

            So I think if a solar dies in a monstrance that its exaltation goes free.
            Yeah, i was referring to "blank monstrances" Though existing ones can be reattuned actually.

            The way i see it, it should be possible to capture the exaltation and bring it to the Neverborn for corruption. If you assume that the Yozis who freaking created them can use them, instead of the ridiculous Lillun thing they are currently using, then they should be able to do it too.

            Which from an out of game perspective is a bit troubling to say the least. It does give the bad guys a very easy way to win, at least untill heaven gets its hands on some monstrances

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mark View Post
              The way i see it, it should be possible to capture the exaltation and bring it to the Neverborn for corruption.
              Oh, that would do it too. Just don't open the monstrance or else the exaltation will escape.

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              • #8
                1st edition Abyssals also had a Void Circle Necromancy spell Dimming the Light that allowed the Necromancer to turn a willing Solar into an Abyssal and one of the spells requirements is that the Solar enters the Monstrance willingly.

                But yeah I would expect the exaltation to be trapped if the Solar does within the Monstrance though I would actually expect that corrupting it is easier when its inside a Solar willing, either because s/he is broken or just wants to become an avatar of Oblivion, the change to happen.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                  1st edition Abyssals also had a Void Circle Necromancy spell Dimming the Light that allowed the Necromancer to turn a willing Solar into an Abyssal and one of the spells requirements is that the Solar enters the Monstrance willingly.

                  But yeah I would expect the exaltation to be trapped if the Solar does within the Monstrance though I would actually expect that corrupting it is easier when its inside a Solar willing, either because s/he is broken or just wants to become an avatar of Oblivion, the change to happen.
                  this spell also exists in second edition

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                  • #10
                    I would say no. If the Solar dies without being converted, their Exaltation flies free and remains Solar.

                    Rationale: If the Monstance could trap it if they died, that defeats the entire purpose of breaking them, both logically (why waste time even trying, most of the time, given that it will produce an Abyssal who will have no reason to be loyal?) and thematically (the entire thematic value of resistance and struggle is lost if it doesn't make any difference in the end.)

                    They're based on the Jade Prison, but they're not the Jade Prison. That was a one-time deal - people can't just research it a bit and produce one of their own. Their purpose is to hold an Abyssal Exaltation that was already bound to them, or to convert a Solar who breaks within them. They don't do anything else - killing a Solar inside one accomplishes absolutely nothing different than killing a Solar inside a non-magical coffin.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aquillion View Post
                      I would say no. If the Solar dies without being converted, their Exaltation flies free and remains Solar.

                      Rationale: If the Monstance could trap it if they died, that defeats the entire purpose of breaking them, both logically (why waste time even trying, most of the time, given that it will produce an Abyssal who will have no reason to be loyal?) and thematically (the entire thematic value of resistance and struggle is lost if it doesn't make any difference in the end.)

                      They're based on the Jade Prison, but they're not the Jade Prison. That was a one-time deal - people can't just research it a bit and produce one of their own. Their purpose is to hold an Abyssal Exaltation that was already bound to them, or to convert a Solar who breaks within them. They don't do anything else - killing a Solar inside one accomplishes absolutely nothing different than killing a Solar inside a non-magical coffin.
                      hmm, the advantage of converting the solar is that you get a new experienced abyssal, as opposed to an initiate. Depending of course on the solar in question.
                      Given that the sidereals managed to make a jade prison i don't see why the combined intellect of the yozis and the deathlords can't do the same.

                      I suppose you could argue that a lot of the monstrances power goes towards recalling the exaltations of slain deathknights so it only has enough power left to hold abyssal exaltations.
                      Even then the deathlords could just make a more specialized tool, i think.

                      One explanation that sort of makes sense would be that in order to make something like the jade prison you need to be attuned to the same energies. So, yozis can make prisons for infernal exaltations, the neverborn can do the same for abyssals. I think this solves a lot of problems while also explaining why the titans did not invent this during the primordial war.

                      Only problem is.. that the Jade prison itsself was not built by solars, so my rationalization goes out of the window..

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                      • #12
                        The difference being that Neverborn, Yozis and Deathlords are immortal beings stuck in their ways. The deathlords have somewhat more flexibility, being Solar Ghosts, but they lack the agency and creativity of the Solars. The Jade Prison was crafted by a secret cabal of Sidereals and Dragonbloods at the height of the first-age.

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                        • #13
                          I'd back Aquilion and say that a Monstrance cannot capture a free Solar Exaltation, especially one where a Lawgiver was tortured to the point where they could either die a Solar or permit themselves to become an Abyssal.

                          I'm going to fall back on a quote from a twitter thread I read recently: "No, that doesn't happen; that's a bad story." Even ignoring the morality of the Abyssal Exaltation as posited in the last couple editions, becoming an Abyssal is, if not wrong or a step down, becoming something fundamentally different from what a Solar is. The narrative of a Solar locked in a Monstrance is fundamentally an attempt to break their spirit and make them into something they are not and don't want to become. As presented, accepting the warping of their Exaltation is a failure state; resisting even unto death is, well, death, and Creation is down one more theoretical champion. Taking it further than that is taking what is presented as accepting death with dignity--a moral victory, if not a directly tangible one--and rendering it a more abstract failure state: the Solar dies, their Exaltation remains in the hands of someone who either has the ability to warp a captive Exaltation into what they wanted in the first place, or at least knows how to facilitate it. Even assuming the Solar's ghost does make it to Lethe--they don't get drawn into Oblivion, they aren't captured and forged into an embarrassingly profane soulsteel objet d'art--the Deathlords are playing a longer game, and can afford to train up their own followers. And if that soul escaped them this time? Well, there's always the time after that, and the time after that, and the time after that.

                          Anything a Deathlord manages to create that can accomplish more than what currently is--that can capture a Solar Exaltation, either one seeking a host, heading towards a specific one, or on their way out of a deceased one--should remain the kind of one-of-a-kind threats for individual stories, rather than something that can be mass produced, and recognized for the thread that it has the potential to be. The Deathlords have enough entropy on their side already.

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                          • #14
                            So I'm in the camp that says no to the Monstrances being able to hold solar exalations. It mostly just strikes me as a boring story.I mean there is a spell to convert the exaltation to abyssal, and we also know the Neverborn ,at least in 2e, were able to convert unbound solar exaltations to abyssal ones. So depending on how you would view it you'd definitely have a deathlord working on the variant of the spell that lets them convert the exaltation if it isn't bound, or you just have one shoving solars in the box offing them when they don't turn and going to the Neverborn to get their new abyssal exaltations which they would then be able to put into their own deathknights. Great one more apocolypse to the pile.

                            As for why the Monstrances can't hold solar exaltations, I'd just say that as constructs of Oblivion and running with that energy (as they were want to in 2e) the essence that makes up a solar exaltation doesn't mesh well enough to bind and the containment mechanics of the construct do little more than delay it without something preventing the exaltation from fleeing the containment.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sticks View Post
                              The difference being that Neverborn, Yozis and Deathlords are immortal beings stuck in their ways. The deathlords have somewhat more flexibility, being Solar Ghosts, but they lack the agency and creativity of the Solars. The Jade Prison was crafted by a secret cabal of Sidereals and Dragonbloods at the height of the first-age.
                              hmm, by that logic, the deathknights and green sun princes should be able to make them...eventually

                              Or perhaps one could argue that, upon the death of its host, an exaltation uses nearly all of its accumulated power to escape whatever conditions imaginable, and can only be captured while passive.. i think i like this idea.. as it takes away an easy win condition for the yozis and neverborn.
                              I mean, realistically speaking, if a Malfeas steals a solar exaltation, and has a behemoth + a third circle demon + armies guard it, and is ready to defend it himself should the need arise, then newly exalted individuals(especially given how divided the exalted currently are), have literally no hope of accomplishing it. Ok, almost no hope , since it's the exalted we are talking about. The Yozis would win by default which is really unticlimatic
                              Last edited by mark; 08-02-2019, 02:48 AM.

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