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Charms of Underwhelming Might

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    When you're roleplaying, do you not picture the scene being played in your mind? Do characters not interact based on visual stimuli?
    Oh, visual stimuli is very important. However, this charm gives no bonuses to the associated performance roll. So, it either bypasses the rule system ("0 success on the performance roll?! You still succeed!") or is meant to be in-system and completely underwhelming ("2 success on the supplemented performance roll is still less than the public's resolve. No effect!"). This Charm, like every other Charm, should have a system effect.


    The Wyld Hunt is an element of the setting that is designed to be applied flexibly, written as both dangerous when they turn up and built in with multiple justifications for why they can't always turn up.

    Being Anathema isn't right in Mahalanka.
    But, it is still an existing menace in the setting, and fame as an Anathema is pretty much a bad idea. The point is, this is a point against the Charm, and there are no positives.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
      *But since this thread is supposed to be about individual charms that are weak, rather than opinions about a contraversial system generally, I'd like to talk about the Slots tree. Once you have the first charm (+Ess x2 major slots) there are several charms that are superfluous, all they do is save you a couple of silver points. But they're prereqs for some interesting charms, which is annoying.
      I forget the names, I'll check later.
      It was Efficient Craftsman Technique. You've already got more Major slots than you need from the prereq; 8xp to reduce the cost of extra slots from 5 silver points to 3 is a complete waste.


      My characters:
      Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
      Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
      Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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      • #63
        Efficient Craftsman Technique is kinda weird, because at low Essence, it's actually pretty handy; esp. if you're not investing a lot of Charms into Craft. But as your Essence goes up (boosting Tireless Workhorse Method), and you probably purchase some more Charms... you have a ton that make the savings from Efficient Craftsman Technique increasingly pointless.

        But this whole section of the Solar Craft tree is bloated to hell and back. It has a bunch of utility, which it then tends to make redundant rather than more useless later, but spread around far too much Charms (esp. repurchasing Dragon Soul Emergence and God-Forge Within... though wth does DSE give you 1 superior slot per purchase, while G-FW gives you 2 legendary slots?).

        Vice-Miracle Technique, Wonder-Forging Genius (because it's the only way you'll speed up a legendary project to see it happen in most games), and Dual Magnus Prana are pretty much all the Charms after Sublime Transference that aren't in need of some amount of work as they're all fairly bland/underwhelming in their own ways; esp. as a whole.

        You can make this so much more tolerable if Tireless Workhorse Method and Efficient Craftsman Technique had automatic upgrades at Essence 3 and 5 to apply to Superior and Legendary respectively (not necessarily word for word), ignore all the cxp generating effects and let the Momentum tree do that, salvage Summit-Piercing Touch and Unwinding Gyre Meditation as at least neat concepts, do something about Exegesis of the Distilled Form and Sun-Heart Tenacity so they're more flexible do the length of in-game time and aren't undercut by the need for decades to pass in-game for them to really be used, and clarify what Spirit-Stoking Elevation actually applies to. Though I'll acknowledge the white cxp to normal XP thing is a bit questionable as a mechanic; it isn't underwhelming though.

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        • #64
          Btw I had the time of my life playing a Twilight non-Supernal crafter (I had like 3 Charms, basically the one to be fast, to change ability points, and the one to roll better) and it was a blast. So obviously my character wasn't (yet) the divine crafter brought to this world to create so many wonders they can't even be numbered, but I could still do some fun crafting.

          I really appreciated finding some little tasks to use my crafts during fight, social or emotionnal scenes, managing my crafting points to try to achieve greater works for my people. I totally get why it could become a real bother late game when you have so much points you don't even know what to do with them.

          My problem is a lot of the charms are indeed boring to buy. The first ones that give you sometimes 1 more silver experience per objective per charm, and 1 gold point when you trigger all objectives are really not interesting when you see what later charms awaits.

          Changing the subject from craft Charms, I believe a few Socialize Charms are really uninteresting, because they are mainly little dice tricks that let you save motes, and so I guess your anima burns less and you also have less fun :

          I believe the worst offender is Shadow Over Day, 1 mote for 1 guile, or 2 motes for 2 guile. It's not like "your rate of guile becomes 1 guilde for 1 mote", it's literally you can have 1 guile and that's all. I don't think the 2motes version make up for this.

          In the same way, even if I guess for some of them it can be discussed, I would add : Umbral Eyes Focus (basically saving you 2 motes under specific circumstances), I guess Night Passes Over is not totally terrible as it reduces penalty, but not for the actual only penalties to Guilde described in the book, Deep-Eyed Soul Gazing when bought at essence 2 allows to you, under specific circumstances, save up 1 mote.

          I mean I know with this kind of reasoning I could be grumpy about much more Charms, but I find these specific ones, especially compared to fun Socialize Charms like Discretionnary Gesture or Mastery of Small Manners or Indecent Proposal Method, really boring

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          • #65
            I’ve been having fun with Socialize Supernal. But to be fair, I haven’t played with all the toys in the box yet - mostly because we’ve been advancing so fast that I’ve been acquiring Charms faster than I can use them.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post

              Crafting doesn’t need to be easy it just shouldn’t be mindnumbingly boring and overly complicated the way it is now and the worst crime its neither heroic or fulfilling .
              That is weird... I find crafting pretty damned awesome, fulfilling and very entertaining... And that is without ever having crafted a single Artifact.


              The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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              • #67
                I have a desire to do a crafter and I have not much interest in Artifacts. The Water Craft sig where you do a major project super fast is hella neat; the idea of just sort of swooshing out a thousand arrows or a bridge in the middle of a battle is way my deal.

                Re: Socialize, I get how Night Passes Over isn't terribly exciting, though I also see its value in slightly tightening up your Guile costs. Maybe it would be better-served if it weren't just that as its own Charm?
                Last edited by Beans; 08-13-2019, 11:54 AM.


                Abyssals: Whom Death Has Called, a PEACH-as-heck attempt to make an Abyssal 3E holdover.

                Where I try to make Artifacts. When I finish them I'll probably post them in the Artifact Workshop thread so people can help me hammer them into shape.

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                • #68
                  Or reduced the cost by more than just 2m for +2 or more. Like you could get +5 for 5 motes rather than 10.

                  Though, honestly, if you're facing a lot of Read Intentions actions in a scene, I think getting +2 for 2 motes instead of 4 is okay for a starting charm. A lot of the social trees start with charms that are just "have an excellency for cheaper". Not super awesome, but I'm not that bothered they're there.
                  (Although I have found them a bit annoying because players often forget the way they interact with dice tricks, especially ones that add auto-successes. And sometimes players say "I'm using Blah-Blah", the ST says "what does that do" and they're like "oh, it adds blah, blah, blah" and they could have just said "it makes excellencies cheaper." Basically, I think it's not clear to less mechanically-minded players that what the charm does is just make excellencies cheaper.
                  But these are not necessarily bad charms. A few are, because sometimes they're not actually cheaper than an excellency, but Night Passes Over isn't one of those, it's always saving you motes.)


                  My characters:
                  Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                  Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                  Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Beans View Post
                    I have a desire to do a crafter and I have not much interest in Artifacts. The Water Craft sig where you do a major project super fast is hella neat; the idea of just sort of swooshing out a thousand arrows or a bridge in the middle of a battle is way my deal.

                    Re: Socialize, I get how Night Passes Over isn't terribly exciting, though I also see its value in slightly tightening up your Guile costs. Maybe it would be better-served if it weren't just that as its own Charm?
                    Yeah I could see it being fusionned with some other Charms that let you save up motes.

                    Or reduced the cost by more than just 2m for +2 or more. Like you could get +5 for 5 motes rather than 10.

                    Though, honestly, if you're facing a lot of Read Intentions actions in a scene, I think getting +2 for 2 motes instead of 4 is okay for a starting charm. A lot of the social trees start with charms that are just "have an excellency for cheaper". Not super awesome, but I'm not that bothered they're there.
                    (Although I have found them a bit annoying because players often forget the way they interact with dice tricks, especially ones that add auto-successes. And sometimes players say "I'm using Blah-Blah", the ST says "what does that do" and they're like "oh, it adds blah, blah, blah" and they could have just said "it makes excellencies cheaper." Basically, I think it's not clear to less mechanically-minded players that what the charm does is just make excellencies cheaper.
                    But these are not necessarily bad charms. A few are, because sometimes they're not actually cheaper than an excellency, but Night Passes Over isn't one of those, it's always saving you motes.)
                    I think it would be acceptable if I didn't find 4 different Charms Essence in Essence 1 and 2 that basically let you sometimes save you 2 motes for 1 roll in some specific occasions. This topic is about underwhelming Charms, and when you compare this to any other correct Charm I don't see them competing with those Charms (namely those I gave like Mastery of Small Manners, Indecent Proposal Method, etc ...)

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Chausse View Post
                      I think it would be acceptable if I didn't find 4 different Charms Essence in Essence 1 and 2 that basically let you sometimes save you 2 motes for 1 roll in some specific occasions.
                      I was sceptical of this, so I checked, and you're right. There's Umbral Eyes Focus (way to specific), Preeminent Gala Knife (really good), and Deep-Eyed Soul Gazing (worth it at high Essence, I guess? At Essence 2 it's saving you a single mote under certain circumstances).

                      I guess they're all saving you motes under different circumstances, but I can see your point about it being pretty dull.
                      Shadow Over Day+Preeminent Gala Knife are actually a very good combo (basically, get +2 Guile for free), but the other two, meh. Luckily, Umbral Eyes Focus doesn't seem to be a prereq for anything, but Deep-Eyed Soul Gazing is a prereq for quite a lot of charms.


                      My characters:
                      Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                      Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                      Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        All the "make Excellencies cheaper" charms are all underwhelming, unless they're scene long.


                        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                        • #72
                          So, A DB thing that isn't about Aura! Naked Thief Style, what's the point?

                          You already use Dexterity+Larceny to conceal things on your body. Such things, being small, are easy to hide already, so the only advantage seems to be...

                          "Characters cannot roll (Perception + Awareness) to contest this concealment unless they’re within short range of the Exalt or use magic that extends the range of their senses. She may stack up to (Dexterity) uses of this Charm to conceal multiple items."

                          Is that a problem that needs a solution? Do thieves usually have trouble with guards who can spot their concealed lockpicks from Medium range? Do they usually pass through checkpoints where the guards are barely within earshot of the people they're scrutinizing?

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Amayad View Post
                            So, A DB thing that isn't about Aura! Naked Thief Style, what's the point?

                            You already use Dexterity+Larceny to conceal things on your body. Such things, being small, are easy to hide already, so the only advantage seems to be...

                            "Characters cannot roll (Perception + Awareness) to contest this concealment unless they’re within short range of the Exalt or use magic that extends the range of their senses. She may stack up to (Dexterity) uses of this Charm to conceal multiple items."

                            Is that a problem that needs a solution? Do thieves usually have trouble with guards who can spot their concealed lockpicks from Medium range? Do they usually pass through checkpoints where the guards are barely within earshot of the people they're scrutinizing?

                            I'd argue that the real benefit isn't the range of detection, it's the fact that it seems to allow an unpenalized roll no matter how you're dressed (handy when you're trying to slip thieves tools in while disguised as an exotic dancer, for instance), and what exactly counts as a "small item you can hold in one hand". While "anything you can lift with one hand" is probably a bit too broad, I'd rule that it's larger than whatever can literally fit within your palm. A dagger, for instance, seems pretty reasonable to be concealed with this charm.

                            All that said, it's still kind of anemic, I'd agree. I'd probably shorten the range things can detect the hidden items down to only close.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                              I actually think Spirit-Tempering Practice is OP.

                              Can Unstoppable Magnus be used out of combat? Otherwise, I can only see it used near the end of a combat when your Dawn friend is about to kill the last enemy and you're 2 range bands away with nothing much to do.
                              Yeah I can see it as a method for when you already dominate in an encounter so you spend easy to replenish resources to get harder to replenish ones. But yeah it’s hard to grock if it’s worth it.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post


                                I'd argue that the real benefit isn't the range of detection, it's the fact that it seems to allow an unpenalized roll no matter how you're dressed (handy when you're trying to slip thieves tools in while disguised as an exotic dancer, for instance), and what exactly counts as a "small item you can hold in one hand". While "anything you can lift with one hand" is probably a bit too broad, I'd rule that it's larger than whatever can literally fit within your palm. A dagger, for instance, seems pretty reasonable to be concealed with this charm.

                                All that said, it's still kind of anemic, I'd agree. I'd probably shorten the range things can detect the hidden items down to only close.
                                To add to this, it's also stackable up to 5 times. So you can hide things on your person I'd say no larger than this without penalty. Then when you get into the back room of the party you pull out your thieves tools, disguise kit, short daiklave, glass flask of acid and hand winch and get to work. For people within short range they can attempt a roll, but it's not automatic. It's not super strong but it's an Essence 1 DB charm.

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