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Charms of Underwhelming Might

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  • #76
    I had to write an entire thread about how to Effectively use Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit.

    It's not a Charm I can see any non-Fire Aspect ever bothering to buy, and then only Fire Aspects who rely on Fire Dragon Style, since Fire Aspects with Melee could get Harnessed Firestorm Assault instead.

    Brawl's Fire Signature Charm, Erupting Fury Barrage, doesn't seem worth the effort of a Fire Aspect investing so much into Brawl, and I don't see any other Aspect bothering to grab that Charm because of the difficulty of a brawler generating the necessary Fire Aura.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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    • #77
      [Edit]

      My reading of this Charm was completely wrong as Vance confirms.

      You can ignore everything I've written below:

      Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

      To add to this, it's also stackable up to 5 times. So you can hide things on your person I'd say no larger than this without penalty.
      In normal, everyday attire, what penalty would you apply?

      Then when you get into the back room of the party you pull out your thieves tools, disguise kit, short daiklave, glass flask of acid and hand winch and get to work. For people within short range they can attempt a roll, but it's not automatic. It's not super strong but it's an Essence 1 DB charm.
      I expect at least this much strength from a charm: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c_1FJGCAPxo
      Last edited by JohnDoe244; 08-15-2019, 11:50 AM.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post


        While I'm not a huge fan of the Solar charmset, I wouldn't say that is a problem in a lot of it. I'd probably agree with Epitome that it's much more of an issue in Twilight abilities than others.


        So, in Lunars, I'm generally happy with the charmset; most of the charms are good but not overpowered.

        There's only one charm that I find too weak, one two of my players have.



        So, for 1wp, you get, say, Resistance (+1 vs freezing cold) and Survival (+1 vs freezing cold).
        You also ignore penalties on Resistance and Survival rolls caused by freezing cold.

        But environmental conditions normally don't apply penalties, they increase the difficulty. They only impose penalties when you're making opposed rolls, and Resistance and Survival aren't things you're normally going to be making opposed rolls on. For example, if the players are in a blizzard, they're going to make difficulty 2 Resistance rolls or something, not a difficulty 1 roll with a -2 penalty.

        So, 95% of the time, the charm is "Pay 1wp, get +1 specialties on Resistance and Survival". Considering the charm is 8/10xp, and specialties cost 3xp each (or, hey, you could just buy more Resistance and Survival), I don't think it's worth spending 8/10xp and 1wp a day for a couple of specialties, even if you can apply them to different environments when you feel like it.

        I'll be honest, I've basically bumped up the charms' power by letting the Casteless character not make Resistance rolls for walking around the North in late winter without many clothes on (well, he's got a polar bear cloak now, but he still doesn't wear a shirt), because a)the charm is rubbish, and b)I can't be bothered to punish him for an aesthetic choice.

        I should say that the Protean benefit is okay (not amazing, but possibly you could do something good with Stamina charms) and the repurchase at Essence 2 is good. It's just the base charm that's weak.



        Every other charm my players have seems good. It's just this one that seems weak.
        I Asked the Devs about this during the KS, and apparently Rugged Beast Endurance should grant the same benefits as Hardship Surviving Mendicant Spirit for areas in which they’ve gained specialties, the charm just neglected to actually say that.


        ....

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        • #79
          Huh, really? That'd make much more sense. Hmmm... do you have a link or something?


          My characters:
          Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
          Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
          Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
            Huh, really? That'd make much more sense. Hmmm... do you have a link or something?
            http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...11#post1297611

            http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...42#post1299042


            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
              In normal, everyday attire, what penalty would you apply?


              I expect at least this much strength from a charm: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c_1FJGCAPxo
              I must say I find the Charm cool and I think it's powerful, but it's true in many situations ST would just apply no penalty to do the same thing (or better) because they just wouldn't think of it.

              And it's a problem I encountered wich many Charms : When you read them, you realize "So I actually need a Charm to do this thing I've been doing for the whole campaign ?"

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              • #82
                Ah, that's great, thanks.


                My characters:
                Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
                Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
                Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

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                • #83
                  We need a term for air-breathing mermaid where you go "wait, shit, maybe they shouldn't have been able to do that."

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                  • #84
                    Water breathing man?

                    Though I think the bigger problems are Charms where there isn't an easy binary of "can/can't" do something.

                    With hiding things on your person there's a lot of "depends" on whether or not it should have required a Charm to do. The Pirates of the Caribbean clip above makes sense as not needing a Charm for all but one of those weapons... and since that's basically just a gag in an action comedy could probably be counted as a Stunt rather than a Charm. She's wearing clothing specifically to disguise how well armed she is, and it doesn't even work once she comes under close scrutiny. Hiding all of that in a bikini seem to obviously require a Charm. But how much can you get away with in the middle? Kinda just has to be a ST call on some level.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                      In normal, everyday attire, what penalty would you apply?
                      To answer this we have to look at what the actual mechanics are for concealing something on your person. You'd think it'd be a contested roll with a penalty for how hard of a thing you're attempting, like disguises are. That doesn't really work though because the Concealable tag sets the difficulty to conceal items at 1, so a difficulty is involved. Since a difficulty is involved, we don't use penalty dice, we use variable difficulty. So just like a disguise check we roll a conceal check against the variable difficulty, if we succeed then the item is concealed, and any threshold successes increase the difficulty to spot it if scrutinized.

                      So, for instance, if you're trying to conceal a short sword in a fairly big dress that might be difficulty 2, so you roll it up and get 3 successes. At this point it IS hidden, somebody who sweeps a room won't automatically pick up that you're armed among the crowd like they would if you had it hanging off your belt. If somebody actually takes the time to scrutinize you though, it's not hard for them to spot that shape under your dress and your awkward way of moving. Unless you're a masterful spy who got like 6 successes, in which case only the most perceptive people in the world really stand a chance at seeing it.

                      So given that if you're trying to conceal a sword it depends on the situation, and your attire helps a lot. You'd have some at difficulty 1 or maybe even 0. That dress is big enough for multiple other characters to be able to make stealth checks in your skirt, you could hide a small armory in it. Then you have some at difficulty 4-5, depending on what you tried to hide and how many. Hiding a short sword in that qipao without being noticed is almost physically impossible, but in the fantasy world of exalted you could try it...but without magic or the greatest roll ever it's not going to stand up to much.

                      So then what that said, hiding items with Naked Thief Style allows you to attempt that concealment just straight for a number of items equal to your dexterity.


                      If that isn't the case then the charm the charm does almost nothing. It calls out that you may roll to conceal things on your person, which you clearly can do anyway there's a friggin Concealable tag for weapons which specifically lowers the difficulty, it doesn't enable concealment, and doesn't give any bonus except for being non-contested past medium range. If that was the case the charm should just say "characters can not attempt to spot items concealed on the terrestrial's body from distances greater than Short Range."

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                      I expect at least this much strength from a charm: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c_1FJGCAPxo
                      Does it...not do that? I think it probably does more actually since in that scene Elizabeth realized the jig was up and disarmed herself, whereas a Terrestrial exalt would just shrug, take off all her outer clothing and say "Yeah? You see any guns here?" and then as soon as a fight breaks out she's got a sword in one hand and throwing bombs with the other.

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                      • #86
                        [Edit]

                        My reading of this Charm was completely wrong as Vance confirms.

                        You can ignore everything I've written below:

                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Though I think the bigger problems are Charms where there isn't an easy binary of "can/can't" do something.

                        With hiding things on your person there's a lot of "depends" on whether or not it should have required a Charm to do. The Pirates of the Caribbean clip above makes sense as not needing a Charm for all but one of those weapons... and since that's basically just a gag in an action comedy could probably be counted as a Stunt rather than a Charm. She's wearing clothing specifically to disguise how well armed she is, and it doesn't even work once she comes under close scrutiny. Hiding all of that in a bikini seem to obviously require a Charm. But how much can you get away with in the middle? Kinda just has to be a ST call on some level.
                        The problem is, the Charm doesn't even work once you're in Short range. Not Close, Short. A spear's throw. At least Elizabeth Swan made it to Close.

                        And the idea of hiding thieves' tools in a bikini is a non-starter for me. When would I ever be in a situation where I have thieves' tools to hide but have to wear a bikini? When is that ever going to come up in play? Especially as The Realm explicitly lays out the fashions you're expected to wear and it's not skimpy bikinis.

                        What is an item small enough to hold in one hand?

                        It's like a Charm that gives you a perfect defence against Boxing Attacks made from Medium range unless the attacker is using Charms, when Boxing Attacks don't exist and couldn't be made from Medium range without Charms anyway.

                        And it's a Larceny 3 Charm with a pre-req. And it builds to a Charm that lets you bury things in the ground. And that's it: hiding lockpicks in your clothes or burying them in the ground is the Dragon-Blooded peak for Larceny. Compared to 2E which let them form theives' tools from Essence, or 3E Solars who don't need lockpicks with a Larceny 2/Essence 1 Charm and at Essence 2 can cause 5 small items to disappear from existence until she needs them, not even sending them Elsewhere, untrumpable by magic or simply being close enough to search.

                        You can hide small items in your clothing. That doesn't need a Charm. No ST discretion. End of story. The Charm text talks about hiding lockpicks in your hair: that doesn't need two Charms -- even if you are wearing a bikini.

                        This is just my opinion, and I realise I'm taking a hard-line on this, but there is no "reasonable middle ground" to be found here. I'd sooner take a Charm that stopped my shoelaces coming untied, or which stopped me accidently swallowing my tongue.

                        I have absolutely no interest in playing Exalted with anyone who thinks you need two charms to hide lockpicks in your hair, and the Charm only works with a successful roll, only from Medium range or further away, and is trumped if contested by magic.

                        Even hiding a short diaklave in a bikini (something that's not supported by the Charm's text) is of such ridiculously niche use, I couldn't ever justify taking two Charms to do it. (Especially as Elemental Sheath and Invisibly Hidden Chakram Method exist.)

                        But, again, just my opinion. I'm not a dev. I'm not anyone remotely important. And by-and-large, I like E3 (and I think Eric and Vance are much better than John and Holden). And if anyone really wants to get into what you can hide without a Charm, that's not "badwrongfun" -- it's just not for me.
                        Last edited by JohnDoe244; 08-15-2019, 11:51 AM.


                        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                        • #87
                          It seems to me that the main point of the charm is to let you conceal small things even when you shouldn't be able to do it. The charm doesn't stop working at short range, it allows a roll to see the concealed items. You could effectively go around naked and conceal small items on your body.

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                          • #88
                            [Edit]

                            My reading of this Charm was completely wrong as Vance confirms.

                            You can ignore everything I've written below:

                            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                            To answer this we have to look at what the actual mechanics are for concealing something on your person. You'd think it'd be a contested roll with a penalty for how hard of a thing you're attempting, like disguises are. That doesn't really work though because the Concealable tag sets the difficulty to conceal items at 1, so a difficulty is involved. Since a difficulty is involved, we don't use penalty dice, we use variable difficulty. So just like a disguise check we roll a conceal check against the variable difficulty, if we succeed then the item is concealed, and any threshold successes increase the difficulty to spot it if scrutinized.
                            That's logical.

                            As the Charm is talking about hiding lockpicks in your hair or a set of theives' tools, I don't see the Difficulty being higher than 1.

                            The Charm says nothing about lowering the Difficulty of hiding these items on your person.

                            So given that if you're trying to conceal a sword it depends on the situation, and your attire helps a lot. You'd have some at https://i.pinimg.com/originals/42/ba/e8/42bae83ea2ec18a4855e3ff3f4a88f93.jpg"]difficulty 1[/URL] or maybe even 0. That dress is big enough for multiple other characters to be able to make stealth checks in your skirt, you could hide a small armory in it. Then you have some at https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ayix5eCgL._UX522_.jpg"]difficulty 4-5[/URL], depending on what you tried to hide and how many. Hiding a short sword in that qipao without being noticed is almost physically impossible, but in the fantasy world of exalted you could try it...but without magic or the greatest roll ever it's not going to stand up to much.
                            5 Dex, 5 Larceny, 2 successes from Underground Rivers Flow, Stunt.

                            And, again, nothing in this Charm suggests that you can use it to hide swords. Or that it changes the Difficulty of hiding items on your person. (Or that you can hide other characters in your clothes.)

                            The Charm allows you to hide "a single item small enough for her to hold in one hand, or an entire set of thieves’ tools" and gives the example of "concealing her lock picks in her coiffure".
                            So then what that said, hiding items with Naked Thief Style allows you to attempt that concealment just straight for a number of items equal to your dexterity.


                            If that isn't the case then the charm the charm does almost nothing. It calls out that you may roll to conceal things on your person, which you clearly can do anyway there's a friggin Concealable tag for weapons which specifically lowers the difficulty, it doesn't enable concealment, and doesn't give any bonus except for being non-contested past medium range. If that was the case the charm should just say "characters can not attempt to spot items concealed on the terrestrial's body from distances greater than Short Range."
                            I don't know what it is you think this Charm does.

                            Do you think it sets the Difficulty to hide things on your body to 0? That's still pretty underwhelming but it's significantly better than my reading.

                            A short diaklave is significantly bigger than the set of thieves' tools allowed by this Charm. Given what the Charm text allows you to hide, I wouldn't allow weapons which don't have the Concealable tag. Even a normal Knife is pushing it.

                            Does it...not do that? I think it probably does more actually since in that scene Elizabeth realized the jig was up and disarmed herself, whereas a Terrestrial exalt would just shrug, take off all her outer clothing and say "Yeah? You see any guns here?" and then as soon as a fight breaks out she's got a sword in one hand and throwing bombs with the other.
                            Elizabeth is hiding weapons (not called out as permissible by this Charm), larger than a set of theives' tools, and there's more than five items.

                            Let me hide a diaklave, a dozen throwing knives, a brace of flame pieces, a small bomb AND a glass flask of acid and hand winch and we're into Charm territory.
                            Originally posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
                            I'd argue that the real benefit isn't the range of detection, it's the fact that it seems to allow an unpenalized roll no matter how you're dressed
                            Where are you getting that the roll is unpenalized from?

                            (handy when you're trying to slip thieves tools in while disguised as an exotic dancer, for instance)
                            Exalted came out in, what, 2001?

                            At any point in the last 18 years have you ever played an exotic dancer who needed a set of theives' tools?

                            It's never come up in my games. If you say this is useful at your table then I believe you, no contest, please accept my apologies. But as a player or ST, I've never had this come up at my table or on the White Wolf RP Chatroom.
                            Originally posted by LDDM84 View Post
                            It seems to me that the main point of the charm is to let you conceal small things even when you shouldn't be able to do it.
                            When shouldn't you be allowed to do it?
                            You could effectively go around naked and conceal small items on your body.
                            Has that ever come up in play for you?

                            Do you think you shouldn't be allowed to hide lockpicks in your hair if you are naked?

                            ****

                            Look, I don't mean to be belligerent about this so I'm going to bow out before I make anyone uncomfortable. I'm just going to Ask the Devs how this works, and I'll link that back to here.

                            [Edit]

                            My reading of this Charm was completely wrong: link.
                            Last edited by JohnDoe244; 08-15-2019, 11:52 AM.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • #89
                              No no, i agree with you. The charm is weak. But what I think it does is a little different of what you think it does. At least, it seems like to be able to conceal little things (something the size of your hand), like a flask, small bomb, small knife or needle, even if you are naked at a flat roll. It still is underwhelming.

                              It could be better if the contested roll would be possible only at close range or with magic

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                                And, again, nothing in this Charm suggests that you can use it to hide swords. Or that it changes the Difficulty of hiding items on your person. (Or that you can hide other characters in your clothes.)

                                The Charm allows you to hide "a single item small enough for her to hold in one hand, or an entire set of thieves’ tools" and gives the example of "concealing her lock picks in her coiffure".

                                I don't know what it is you think this Charm does.

                                Do you think it sets the Difficulty to hide things on your body to 0? That's still pretty underwhelming but it's significantly better than my reading.
                                Okay but follow me here, if it doesn’t set the difficulty to 0, then what is the difficulty? Is it just the difficulty of hiding a lockpick on your person? Well if that’s the case then what does the charm even do? You’re paying 1m to roll to do something you could do anyway at the same difficulty you could do it at without the charm. I think the only reading of that that makes sense is if all the charm does is prevent contested rolls for medium range and only for the items specifically hidden that way, which would indeed make it a useless charm.

                                Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                                Elizabeth is hiding weapons (not called out as permissible by this Charm), larger than a set of theives' tools, and there's more than five items.

                                Let me hide a diaklave, a dozen throwing knives, a brace of flame pieces, a small bomb AND a glass flask of acid and hand winch and we're into Charm territory.
                                Where are you getting that the roll is unpenalized from?
                                I’m pretty sure even Solars can’t do that, right? Not without wearing an outfit that’s giant and baggy. Proof Eating Palm doesn’t even say “an object small enough to hold in one hand.” It says “an object small enough to palm.” Which is like a coin, playing card, maybe a small dagger.

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