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Are The Primordials Based on Mental Disorders?

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  • Are The Primordials Based on Mental Disorders?

    I was cruising by tvtropes and It's character sheet for Autochton says Autochton is supposed to be Autistic,right down to the fact he was bullied.
    Is that true? Because it's kinda awesome

  • #2
    Possibly correlations and such. It also could just have been a trait unique to the design of Auto for 2e as opposed to a thing that was considered for all of them.

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    • #3
      That was a meme in late 2e, but I doubt that was the intention.

      Keep in mind, the Exalted TVTropes page is mostly occupied by 2e Memelords.


      Disclaimer: I'll huff, grump, and defend my position, but if you're having fun I'll never say you're doing it wrong.

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      • #4
        Thanks guys

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
          I was cruising by tvtropes and It's character sheet for Autochton says Autochton is supposed to be Autistic,right down to the fact he was bullied.
          Is that true? Because it's kinda awesome
          You can't be Autistic if you are not human, it is a human diagnosis, people have often asked vets for instance if their cats are autistic and well we don't have a definition for that outside of humanity.

          But Autochthon actually Lobotimized himself by converting his Fetiche soul (his Brain) into an artificial brain to specifically help him interact on a human level. This would imply to me that his grasp of human social conventions and ways of thinking are probably better than most Primordials.

          And I believe it was Adorjan who was compared to autism, but she is a Murder Buddha free from constraint.

          Really all the Primordials aren't humans and they can't be defined by human syndromes. But they could embody or thematically represent such mental disorders we see in humans. Hegra being Nightmares, Metagos being Eating Disorders, the Ebon Dragon being Sociopathy, Malfeas having Disassociative Personality Disorder and Uncontrollable Narcissistic Rage, and Post Traumatic Stress to name a few.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Ooh,gotcha.

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            • #7
              No, that’s just the normal human tendency toward apophenia on the part of whoever wrote that article.

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              • #8
                We're slowly updating the trope pages to 3e but there's a lot of stuff to cover...

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                • #9
                  Certainly the Primordials/Yozi are not human-neurotypical, but that's because they're the unbegotten, inhuman, otherworldly monsters who created the world and are now imprisoned in a literal or metaphorical hell of their own making.

                  They are archetypal, and human psychology (and to a lesser extent neurology) is based on archetypes. Like how people see faces in inanimate objects, it fits with human schema and sterotype to identify human traits in the monsters (especially where this is self-referencial or otherwise based on one's own identity).

                  Throw on top of that unconcious bias and sterotyping on behalf of the writers, and appreciate in the fact that the people writting Exalted are not extra-dimensional cthulhic beings but humans with human life experiences and it's easy to see how these judgements are made.

                  To be clear as someone who writes/edits these books has already said a straight "no", I'm not arguing with that: the answer is "no". But certainly if a human being exhibited the personality traits of the Primordials/Yozi (deliberately labotimizing oneself in the pursuit of efficiency, murdering your loved ones, carrying out self-harm, obsessing over hierarchy) they would be acting in line with a mental disorder (just as if they started acting in a way that was normal for a dog or a dolphin that wouldn't be neurotypical but it doesn't mean dogs have Disinhibited Social Engagement Disorder).

                  (As a 2E memelord, I take issue with the sentiment that everything silly comes from 2E. But that's another discussion.)

                  But Autobot was bullied in canon. His portrayal in past editions is consistent with human autisic traits. If that makes you like the character more then you're not alone -- he's my favourite too. But he wasn't specifically written to be autistic. He was written to be a planet-sized, incomprehensible, creator of gods (who invented the concept of Faith, the existence of Tools and the process of Exaltation).
                  Last edited by JohnDoe244; 08-17-2019, 04:29 AM.


                  Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                    We're slowly updating the trope pages to 3e but there's a lot of stuff to cover...
                    And even that's already accumulating some weirdness. Somebody wrote something to the effect of Mnemon having a literally broken capability to form Sworn Kinships.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      And even that's already accumulating some weirdness. Somebody wrote something to the effect of Mnemon having a literally broken capability to form Sworn Kinships.
                      ... As in Sworn Kinships are broken and she can make them, or this person thinks she is the only DB capable of making them, or that Sworn Kinships with Mnemnon involved function differently than the ones other DBs can make?

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                      • #12
                        Ability as being gone.

                        That's the last I intend to say of the subject here, I don't want to detail this thread into an interrogation of TV Tropes.

                        For the subject, I have an impression that Yozis as modelled off of mental disorders was... a thing that somebody might have one claimed Michael Goodwin said. Which even if I'm remembering accurately would probably be a dubious source.

                        The closest I can think of that might map to that would be Goodwin describing writing the Ebon Dragon Charms based on some of his own negative mental health experiences, which is... far too much to unpack.

                        Whatever the accuracy of it, either as a writer intent or viable means of approaching the material, I think it should be approached cautiously; on its own, it dances closely to reductive and somewhat ignorant takes on disorders, and then deals with the whole chestnut of associating then with villainous characters or their transgressive, transformative massive.

                        That these are fraught considerations seem more important to me than whether or not it's lore accurate.

                        I also have a worry about the phrasing in the original post; it kind of feels like it's characterising autism specifically in terms of being bullied.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Ability as being gone.

                          That's the last I intend to say of the subject here, I don't want to detail this thread into an interrogation of TV Tropes.

                          For the subject, I have an impression that Yozis as modelled off of mental disorders was... a thing that somebody might have one claimed Michael Goodwin said. Which even if I'm remembering accurately would probably be a dubious source.

                          The closest I can think of that might map to that would be Goodwin describing writing the Ebon Dragon Charms based on some of his own negative mental health experiences, which is... far too much to unpack.

                          Whatever the accuracy of it, either as a writer intent or viable means of approaching the material, I think it should be approached cautiously; on its own, it dances closely to reductive and somewhat ignorant takes on disorders, and then deals with the whole chestnut of associating then with villainous characters or their transgressive, transformative massive.

                          That these are fraught considerations seem more important to me than whether or not it's lore accurate.

                          I also have a worry about the phrasing in the original post; it kind of feels like it's characterising autism specifically in terms of being bullied.
                          my mistake,i apologize.

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                          • #14
                            From my understanding Auto was bullied more for his weak health, the Archetypical Forge God Limp as well as him having some natural form of degrading Cancer even though he is an eternal being, rather than being a nerd or socially awkward. I imagine Ebon Dragon would have been bullied more if he wasn't clever enough to aim it at Auto, because ED is frailer then most Primordials being a shadow of a true dragon rather then say an Unstoppable Boar Juggernaut Singularity.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                              For the subject, I have an impression that Yozis as modelled off of mental disorders was... a thing that somebody might have one claimed Michael Goodwin said. Which even if I'm remembering accurately would probably be a dubious source.

                              The closest I can think of that might map to that would be Goodwin describing writing the Ebon Dragon Charms based on some of his own negative mental health experiences, which is... far too much to unpack.
                              I'd completely forgot about... that.

                              (Presented without comment, but I remember thinking this was the most metal thing I'd ever read when I first saw it.)


                              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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