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Are The Primordials Based on Mental Disorders?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    I'd completely forgot about... that.
    Beat me to it! Michael Goodwin aka Nephilpal - I think also "Thus_Spake_Zaranephilpal".

    Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
    I was cruising by tvtropes and It's character sheet for Autochton says Autochton is supposed to be Autistic,right down to the fact he was bullied.
    Is that true? Because it's kinda awesome
    It should be noted that Autochton is a difficult example - the Yozis (like The Ebon Dragon, Malfeas, etc) for which we have charms are easier to parse.

    For Example: Theion-Malfeas

    It's easy to stereotype him as some lazy Warhammer rip-off in the shape of Judeo-Christian "hell".

    But Theion's imperfection depended on followers - it wasn't some arrogant whim - it was core to how his sense-of-self worked. Even as Malfeas is "rage incarnate", his very nature creates entire city-continents for others to inhabit. What is more "Malfean", the superficial rage or his infinite-world-body growing into shelters?

    A crazier comparison is his vision.

    Theion had "Glorious Vassal Illumination" - an indefinite charm that let him judge relative Essence level, any Attributes or Abilities 4+, what they value, if they're servile and even their mightiest charm. Theion had had a really, really good way of judging your skills, your loyalty, your interest, your power (and could thus figure out if/how you could contribute to the team).

    Malfeas instead has Insignificant Embers Intuition and Dim Irrelevancies Unveiled - one free for him, another permanent - automatically triggered when an Essence used-power is within (Essence x 10) yards. And all he sees is relative power-level. Imagine the paranoia of an AoE constantly telling you "someone is using magic" but it won't tell you who or what or why. He also suffers from Nightmare Fugue Vigilance (permanent) - so if he sleeps, it's nightmares; and if he's awake, he still suspects he's dreaming.

    Do you see the horror?

    So Theion-Malfeas once could literally see the best in people. And he knew what mattered to them, if they were loyal (and in between could probably figure out how to integrate them into whatever plans he had in mind). Someone once said Theion charms could be used to play Superman.

    Now no matter where he looks, those people don't exist. No one appears to value anything, no one appears loyal, no one has traits 4+ (to his vision-charms) ... he's awake 24/7, the survivor of a genocide that killed entire world-sized siblings, surrounded by the imprisoned or mutilated (including himself).... and his entire body is crawling with essence-users whose every charm automatically triggers DIU & IEI like a blind veteran covered in firecrackers and fire-ants.

    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
    Certainly the Primordials/Yozi are not human-neurotypical, but that's because they're the unbegotten, inhuman, otherworldly monsters who created the world and are now imprisoned in a literal or metaphorical hell of their own making.

    They are archetypal, and human psychology (and to a lesser extent neurology) is based on archetypes. Like how people see faces in inanimate objects, it fits with human schema and sterotype to identify human traits in the monsters (especially where this is self-referencial or otherwise based on one's own identity).
    Exalted has a great inversion on this.

    Some people would suggest humans are anthropomorphizing the Primordials.

    But we must not forget "The Clay Man", a Behemoth made by Autochton, who the Primordials vivisected and reverse-engineered to make humanity. So the Yozis don't have human-like mental-illnesses - mankind has Yozi-like behaviors. We're amalgamations of all the Primordials who had some touch upon our creation (even if they never imagined much for us).
    • We were made to be servile - but that requires understanding leadership (thanks Theion), hierarchy (thanks She Who Lives In Her Name). We can probably thank Kimbery for gender (so that we could reproduce, unlike the Clay Man) and Cecelyne (for social order and law).
    • We were made weak - but that requires understanding strength (thanks Isidoros) and we use tools & technology to overcome weakness (thanks Autochton).
    • We were made vulnerable - but even the Ebon Dragon couldn't be himself without also creating the Unconquered Sun and Virtue to contradict himself.
    Every shitty thing a Primordial might have wished upon us - required us to understand their concepts (and their inverse). So (for example) if 23 Primordials look "one-dimensional and broken" to us, it's only because we had 22 other co-creators who gave us alternative frameworks to work from.


    Through indiscriminate suffering men know fear and fear is the most divine emotion.
    It is the stones for altars and the beginning of wisdom.
    Half gods are worshipped in wine and flowers. Real gods require blood.
    - Their Eyes Were Watching God

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Salagimsim View Post
      Beat me to it! Michael Goodwin aka Nephilpal - I think also "Thus_Spake_Zaranephilpal".


      It should be noted that Autochton is a difficult example - the Yozis (like The Ebon Dragon, Malfeas, etc) for which we have charms are easier to parse.

      For Example: Theion-Malfeas

      It's easy to stereotype him as some lazy Warhammer rip-off in the shape of Judeo-Christian "hell".

      But Theion's imperfection depended on followers - it wasn't some arrogant whim - it was core to how his sense-of-self worked. Even as Malfeas is "rage incarnate", his very nature creates entire city-continents for others to inhabit. What is more "Malfean", the superficial rage or his infinite-world-body growing into shelters?

      A crazier comparison is his vision.

      Theion had "Glorious Vassal Illumination" - an indefinite charm that let him judge relative Essence level, any Attributes or Abilities 4+, what they value, if they're servile and even their mightiest charm. Theion had had a really, really good way of judging your skills, your loyalty, your interest, your power (and could thus figure out if/how you could contribute to the team).

      Malfeas instead has Insignificant Embers Intuition and Dim Irrelevancies Unveiled - one free for him, another permanent - automatically triggered when an Essence used-power is within (Essence x 10) yards. And all he sees is relative power-level. Imagine the paranoia of an AoE constantly telling you "someone is using magic" but it won't tell you who or what or why. He also suffers from Nightmare Fugue Vigilance (permanent) - so if he sleeps, it's nightmares; and if he's awake, he still suspects he's dreaming.

      Do you see the horror?

      So Theion-Malfeas once could literally see the best in people. And he knew what mattered to them, if they were loyal (and in between could probably figure out how to integrate them into whatever plans he had in mind). Someone once said Theion charms could be used to play Superman.

      Now no matter where he looks, those people don't exist. No one appears to value anything, no one appears loyal, no one has traits 4+ (to his vision-charms) ... he's awake 24/7, the survivor of a genocide that killed entire world-sized siblings, surrounded by the imprisoned or mutilated (including himself).... and his entire body is crawling with essence-users whose every charm automatically triggers DIU & IEI like a blind veteran covered in firecrackers and fire-ants.


      Exalted has a great inversion on this.

      Some people would suggest humans are anthropomorphizing the Primordials.

      But we must not forget "The Clay Man", a Behemoth made by Autochton, who the Primordials vivisected and reverse-engineered to make humanity. So the Yozis don't have human-like mental-illnesses - mankind has Yozi-like behaviors. We're amalgamations of all the Primordials who had some touch upon our creation (even if they never imagined much for us).
      • We were made to be servile - but that requires understanding leadership (thanks Theion), hierarchy (thanks She Who Lives In Her Name). We can probably thank Kimbery for gender (so that we could reproduce, unlike the Clay Man) and Cecelyne (for social order and law).
      • We were made weak - but that requires understanding strength (thanks Isidoros) and we use tools & technology to overcome weakness (thanks Autochton).
      • We were made vulnerable - but even the Ebon Dragon couldn't be himself without also creating the Unconquered Sun and Virtue to contradict himself.
      Every shitty thing a Primordial might have wished upon us - required us to understand their concepts (and their inverse). So (for example) if 23 Primordials look "one-dimensional and broken" to us, it's only because we had 22 other co-creators who gave us alternative frameworks to work from.
      Question,is Theion the former Malfeas in the main exalted setting?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
        Whatever the accuracy of it, either as a writer intent or viable means of approaching the material, I think it should be approached cautiously; on its own, it dances closely to reductive and somewhat ignorant takes on disorders, and then deals with the whole chestnut of associating then with villainous characters or their transgressive, transformative massive.

        That these are fraught considerations seem more important to me than whether or not it's lore accurate.
        I think I get what you're saying and agree with your intent - but I lean in favor of "approach" over "caution".

        First, I question the term "villainous characters" - despite volition, the Yozis are hardly more human than a hurricane or t-rex or a plague. So while it's a smart idea to not demonize people struggling with mental illness - I think the problem is in conflating the Yozis with people, if that makes sense. I don't blame Malfeas for being Malfeas any more than I blame a storm for raining on me or a cat for clawing.

        Secondly, the only "real" interaction with the Yozis is via their charms & charm-driven-behaviors.

        Without strong social & virtue systems - it's easy (in many games, not just Exalted) to brush off other players and their characters.... accusing them of trolling, or telling them to "quit being weird" and "get over it", etc. Even the Great Curse is often a temporary and flexible moment of melodrama some roll eyes at (as if it were a mere tantrum).

        But by baking behaviors (and values and traumas) into their mechanics, it legitimizes and forces people to acknowledge them as tangible things to be grappled with. The charms end up giving everyone "behavioral space" if that makes sense.

        So in any game, the "rogue" can lie to the party - the grumpy "ranger" can openly distrust an entire crowd of (X-race). Most players might dismiss them as trolls, disruptive or even just wanting attention via lazy bigotry.

        But we can't dismiss a Fiend the same way (when their charms require them to lie in order for us to believe them). We can't dismiss a Slayer the same way for distrusting a group (when Malfeas charms inspired paranoia & nightmares - but also legit warnings that maybe there's an essence-user in the crowd that they distrust).

        And this isn't even touching the various Virtue-centric charms (which are probably my favorite for codifying how certain mindsets can have a high Virtue and do things contrary to conventional morality - not from a lack of Virtue, but by reframing the priorities of that virtue). It's the social combat equivalent of a Water Aspect declaring "I can't be drowned - kill me some other way" without someone angrily calling BS that there's an Exalt type immune to drowning (so to speak).


        Through indiscriminate suffering men know fear and fear is the most divine emotion.
        It is the stones for altars and the beginning of wisdom.
        Half gods are worshipped in wine and flowers. Real gods require blood.
        - Their Eyes Were Watching God

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
          Question,is Theion the former Malfeas in the main exalted setting?
          Theion shows up in "Shards of the Exalted Dream" with a pretty full write-up in an alternative timeline in which the Exalted lost.

          Page 38 has "A Legacy for Malfeas" should Theion be mutilated, including notes on which charms stay the same in the transition to the Malfeas in Infernals.

          so

          The only real "hypothetical" (what if the Exalted lost) means that the King of the Primordials is untouched. This isn't a hypothetical "future" in which Malfeas is changed into something else - it's a hypothetical past in which he was never changed at all.

          Tangent:
          I had to dig it up but there's an old list of Primordials with "new names" - Szoreny, Adrian(/Adorjan), Sacheverell and (Theion/)Malfeas are one batch (directly after the war). Others (in other books) include the Ebon Dragon (who acquired a "new name" after helping engineer the creation of the Unconquered Sun); Isidoros (a text says "who would be called Isidoros", meaning he once was something else); and then She Who Lives In Her Name and Kimbery (both of which are implied to have changed somehow, tho not necessarily as extreme as the rest).

          Edit:
          This is where I note - it's a credit to the writers that I logged on to see the Hunter forums - and yet mention the Primordials and I'm sucked into a 7 year old space opera splinter-book because of how awesome I thought the entire splat is (and how Theion always made me pity Malfeas).

          I remember "fixing" and "changing" the Yozis was in vogue as an idea for a while - people weren't demonizing them as something to destroy, they were sympathizing with the horrors committed upon them (kind of like pitying an extinct species that you know would kill you - wishing that maybe you could domesticate it to arrive at a cease-fire).

          So instead of "merely" fixing a village or conquering a city - there was something profoundly optimistic about wanting to "redeem" entire world-concept-things, the way humanity toils to save Autochton.

          If you saw Superman inside of Theion charms, then fixing Malfeas is like saving Superman. And that just feels all kinds of nice to aspire to in Exalted.
          Last edited by Salagimsim; 08-20-2019, 11:57 PM.


          Through indiscriminate suffering men know fear and fear is the most divine emotion.
          It is the stones for altars and the beginning of wisdom.
          Half gods are worshipped in wine and flowers. Real gods require blood.
          - Their Eyes Were Watching God

          Comment


          • #20
            While Theion would become basically Malfeas is defeated, this isn't necessarily the case that Malfeas was Theion. I kind of always interpetted it still as much the "what if" as anything else. Just like the Joker doesn't necessarily have to be the guy who shot Batman's parents to be the Joker.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post

              Question,is Theion the former Malfeas in the main exalted setting?
              It's implied. There's sidebars on how they interact. There's dev commentary about restoring Malfeas by innovating Theion charms learned from The Well.

              The Unconquered Sun basically has three write ups in Glories depending on how powerful you want him. The Scarlet Empress may or may not be akuma.

              I feel the answer is "yes" and as with all things it's a "yes, but".


              Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Salagimsim View Post

                I think I get what you're saying and agree with your intent - but I lean in favor of "approach" over "caution".
                Eh, I more or less find your description to fit within my standards of cautious approach, so it's fine.

                To me, the significance of caution is in how these are things with implications for real life people, whether they be players with mental illness needing to navigate yet another work of fiction that depicts the subject with a stigma, or the contribution they make to people at large who are getting such stigmas fed to them from multiple angles.

                It helps that you're focusing mostly on the subject of how those things play out for Exalted characters rather than what they mean in the Yozis.

                Originally posted by Salagimsin
                First, I question the term "villainous characters" - despite volition, the Yozis are hardly more human than a hurricane or t-rex or a plague. So while it's a smart idea to not demonize people struggling with mental illness - I think the problem is in conflating the Yozis with people, if that makes sense. I don't blame Malfeas for being Malfeas any more than I blame a storm for raining on me or a cat for clawing.
                That's a standard line for figures of the scope of the Yozis in other settings that people reference at times, but it's not really consistent with how they've ever been portrayed in Exalted. The game has very few nods to cosmic horror and is driven more by pulp fiction and mythology in which grand melodrama that is either human or reminiscent of them is central.

                I don't really buy the Yozis as being akin to a hurricane when Games of Divinity describes them as adopting humanoid forms to engage in revelry in Hell's taverns. Even Manuel: Infernals made a lot of their Charms very personally oriented, and then it goes and says that these are what the Yozis are basically made of.

                It's funny how people took to thinking of She Who Lives in Her Name as some kind of ultra-logical being when her first description had her mutilating herself to spite the world and described her as being really petty about giving help to the gods and Exalted. I think these things are more consistent with the game's general tone while still being distinguished by being the traits of a giant cloud of geomtrically rotating crystal spheres.

                (People also compared her to GLaDOS, which was technically more accurate, but seemingly inadvertantly as they appeared to remember a different GLaDOS than the one from the games)

                I guess if we're talking about the context of late Second Edition specifically there's a question to be had about how much moral agency they possess when they have Charms defining the parameters of their behaviour, but that's going to have to be mulled over by more interested people.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
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                • #23
                  Game of Divinity also assign human's actions to the Yozi such as making elaborate plans to torment both demons and humans, having a love for perfomance and of course, wanting to destroy Creation like the fantasy demon realm that they are. There isn't much Lovecraftian in the Yozi at all if you go by the canon text.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jen View Post
                    Game of Divinity also assign human's actions to the Yozi such as making elaborate plans to torment both demons and humans, having a love for perfomance and of course, wanting to destroy Creation like the fantasy demon realm that they are. There isn't much Lovecraftian in the Yozi at all if you go by the canon text.
                    But the book talks about them being unknowable.

                    What we see, how we interpret the actions of the Yozi, how your characters interact with them -- this is just one facet of their existence. Games of Divinity doesn't need to get into how you can't interact with the Yozi, it (practically by definition) can't go into the Lovecraftian elements because it's an RPG guide on how to interact with them. So we approach the Yozi through the vectors we can understand.



                    You dance with the Brass Dancer because you can't


                    D̴̯͍̱̟͐̌̃̓̓̐ã̶̧̛͇̹͈̗͖̮̫̋́̾͒͒̎͗̆͘͘ṋ̴̛̞̽͑́̄̇̕͘c̴̉̅ ̛̥̹̮͎̘̹͚̑̃́̔̐͜͝͝ḛ̵̢͇̻̪̬͗̅̄̂̐̈́̆̎̏̆͘͜with the demon city.


                    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                    • #25
                      There is a vast middle-ground between "unknowable Lovecraftean alien horror" and "the Ebon Dude likes whiskey and hookers".

                      As such, there's no contradiction in ascribing them human-like behaviors while still holding to the fact that they & their motives are not human.


                      Primordials are designed like conglomerates - and corporations can donate to charities, use social media, write blogs, do PRIDE events, have holiday specials, you name it - none of those things make them human. Even the sales and marketing employees - while representing the company - are not individuals but avatars of the Primordial-Corp.

                      • Humans donate to causes they support.
                        • Corporations hold Fundraisers... for optics.
                        • Or we hold Fundraisers because "this well-connected donor has a son - so if we set up the event and give the kid the credit for organizing it, the donor promises to get someone from the City to attend our next Board Meeting to discuss which Commissioners we can get to vote in our favor with this zoning issue being passed next month."
                        • I know someone being paid $3,600 per month just to push out 1 Instagram post per week for an organization she hasn't even met with in person - imagine the dirt.
                      • Humans share personal stories - or are private.
                        • Corporations teach sales-reps how to analyze clients. We fake enthusiasm, borrow anecdotes, practice jokes all to seal a sale.
                        • I don't watch sports - but as a sales-rep, I used to follow a sports-junkies tweets to borrow opinions on Real Madrid. "Yes, I love every sport you love and here's the best product for keeping up-to-date".
                        • I don't own a television - but as a sales-rep, "yes this television looks amazing outdoors in my (non-existent) backyard".
                        • I don't like Apple products - but as a sales-rep, "yes, Apple makes everything easy for you and is an excellent choice - let me show you some accessories".
                      • Humans write blogs or open small businesses.
                        • Corporations hire a schlep like me to manage 24-28 "personal" websites - each with bios as fake as any Exalted character sheet - so we can build localized link-hierarchies in 4 countries - to promote a new acronym we developed - to boost sales for a website we're launching in a month. Oh and none of the websites I managed have any relationship to the product. One personality was a fitness instructor posting diet plans. Another was an expat in South Korea with a travel blog. Every face was a model I photographed at a studio (complete with fake bedrooms, fake campuses, fake offices, fake nature).
                      Does this convey the idea?


                      If you work in marketing, sales or PR - we constantly engage in human-like activity that has no resemblance to why people behave that way.


                      So no, I wouldn't reduce SWLIHN into a GLaDOS knock-off in Hells Tavern - but her Cosmic (Virtue) charms guarantee to make her one of the most "extra" patrons at the bar. Cosmic (Valor) makes her fearless; Cosmic (Temperance) makes her truthful and blunt; Cosmic (Compassion) is a minefield of potential awesome/horror.

                      ...and whatever her inscrutable (small "i") reasons for masquerading as a human patron, those reasons are connected to her Primordial-Corp-Nature (and not just some random lark). Her conception of "a good time" has to be unique to her. She never had a human childhood, allergies, phobias, hunger, limitations, organs, etc to be human.


                      This ended up being a tangent on Theion-Malfeas:

                      It's very easy to imagine an era when Theion might have started a song-and-dance. He has charms to communicate, coordinate and empower his subordinates.

                      And after some wonderful spectacle, he gazes at the crowd.... what does Theion see?
                      • His gaze sees their highest attribute, ability and charms - "I am surrounded by talented individuals, each a wonder in their own right!"
                      • His gaze sees one of their Intimacies - "And so many of them have Intimacies.... to me! Love! Adoration! Awe!"
                      • His gaze sees if they qualify as Servile - "And these marvelous, beautiful people are my Followers!"
                      Song-and-dance as Theion must have been awesome.

                      Now skip to the present.

                      What does Malfeas see?
                      • His gaze... is blind. He sees no one that is talented. "What happened to the old crowds? I've been reduced to performing for schleps."
                      • His gaze... is blind. He sees no one has intimacies for anything. "The entire Infernal host doesn't give a shit about anything anymore!"
                      • His gaze... is blind. He sees no one is servile... no one is loyal - and those who claim to be are clearly liars.
                      • The only thing his gaze can see now is potential threats (essence scores & usage) every time these talentless, loveless, liars pop a charm to try keeping up with the song & dance.
                      Song-and-dance as Malfeas must be depressing once the music ends.

                      It's what makes his human-form different from other Yozi-human-forms.
                      • He might be the "fallen actor reduced to some Podunk venue where the yokels don't give a shit about art";
                      • He might be the "PTSD-addled General, drinking & lashing out at civilians, because none seem to respect the sacrifices he (and a far better generation prior to them) made".
                      • He might be the "sleepless, nightmare-driven madman who is joyfully violent because he thinks its all a dream and insects are crawling on him".
                      • He might be the (come up with a concept inspired by his charms).



                      This ended up being a tangent on the Ebon Dragon:

                      The Ebon Dragon does not have a special vulnerability or addiction to alcohol.
                      • But he drinks anyways to set an example of debauchery,
                        and then convinces someone else to buy a round for everyone to lower their inhibitions
                      And the victim he manipulated into buying the booze isn't by any fault his enemy. But no good deed goes unpunished around the Ebon Dragon.
                      • So he convinces demon patron #2 "he's clearly trying to make moves on your girl"
                      • And he convinces demon patron #3 "he clearly meant this as an insult, as if you're broke"
                      • And he convinces demon patron #4 "don't you work at that other tavern? he's clearly trying to put you out of business!"
                      And human sex means nothing to a Primordial.
                      • But he'll be tempted to seduce a married target to break their vows.
                      • And he'll take the opportunity to force himself on another to traumatize them.
                      • And sure he'll bang the "hot girl".
                        • But his "desire for beauty" is not derived from human foundations (beauty = symmetry = a healthy mate). He recognizes beauty is bait. So he ruins such lovers in a night, leaving them forever unsatisfied thereafter, creating a string of broken romances as they seek the same thrill..... and ideally, all their would-be lovers will also be broken in turn, jaded or self-conscious or driven to madness.
                          • TLDR - he's not fucking your body, he's fucking over your life and all your lover's lives and all their lover's lives (ideally)
                      Drugs mean nothing to a creature with no nervous system.
                      • But he'll enjoy and share drugs anyways hoping to create addicts because then they might steal or hurt someone to finance their fix and thus their virtues erode.
                      • Or let a human overdose - and enjoy the turmoil from their lover and family and friends suffering at the loss.
                        • And if you're lucky, the survivors then turn violent against drug users who aren't responsible for the death. Get the cops to imprison potheads and ruin their lives. Then the peaceful potheads to associate with criminals and become real threats when released. Then...
                      • Or slip something to knock someone out - so their Valor is shaken by the mere thought of eating or drinking anything again.


                      The Primordials don't need to be divorced from human-like behavior.

                      But like a corporation, their motivations and experiences are going to be really warped by our standards.

                      This doesn't make them Lovecraftean.

                      Unfortunately there are few real-world parallels to most Yozis, so I defaulted to "Yozi as person" as opposed to "Yozi as corporation" examples. But since corporations can act like persons, despite not being human, I hope it holds up.

                      If we need corporate examples:

                      The Ebon Corporation might be a criminal cartel. It's ultimately about money, not malevolence, but the end-results are similar - no one is giving you freebies "because they're cool", they're giving you freebies to rob, addict or kidnap you.

                      If Gaia was a Yozi, she'd be ELF - they seem friendly and conscientious but want to secretly wipe out most of humanity to save the planet.

                      If Autochton was a Yozi, he might be Lockheed Martin. He can pretend to be patriotic, to love burgers and America, but his internal motivation is to lock-in public support for contracts for armaments to fund his next generation R&D projects. Sometimes those negotiations take the shape of vacations with lobbyists and politicians.

                      Malfeas-Corp might take the shape of a struggling media company in the late 90s, when companies were closing and they hadn't realized online streaming would dominate. So his avatars are reps doing all kinds of market research. Or Malfeas-Corp is Netflix, and when we see him at Hells Tavern, he's in the shape of a comedian testing new material for the next special.



                      Ironically, this means the 3rd & 2nd Circle (who are not compelled by Yozi charms) are the least ethically interesting. They are 100% culpable for their actions. And it becomes boring because any Exalt can bludgeon them with social-combat, kung-fu, magic and reason.

                      3rd & 2nd Circle souls are effectively "humans using magic to behave like shit" - Ink Monkeys even lends itself to the employee-comparison when after a Primordial was slain, several of its souls fled to join other Primordial soul-hierarchies (like employees seeking new jobs).


                      Conversely, a Yozi & Infernal faces "magic forcing inhuman behavior". So going back to the corporate analogy, I can't blame Disney-Malfeas for acting like Disney-Malfeas, nor can I blame Infernal sales-reps of Disney-Malfeas from acting as their employee manual tells them to. If I have sympathy for an Infernal, that sympathy can only go further for the Yozi who doesn't know other ways of being.

                      I can feel bad for a Fiend who ruins paintings because they no longer see color.

                      By extension, I can only further pity the Ebon Dragon if his charms prevented him from ever conceptualizing​ what color is like.


                      Through indiscriminate suffering men know fear and fear is the most divine emotion.
                      It is the stones for altars and the beginning of wisdom.
                      Half gods are worshipped in wine and flowers. Real gods require blood.
                      - Their Eyes Were Watching God

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Blaque View Post
                        While Theion would become basically Malfeas is defeated, this isn't necessarily the case that Malfeas was Theion. I kind of always interpetted it still as much the "what if" as anything else. Just like the Joker doesn't necessarily have to be the guy who shot Batman's parents to be the Joker.
                        Wait which comic had the Joker shoot the Waynes?


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          Wait which comic had the Joker shoot the Waynes?
                          You ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?
                          Last edited by JohnDoe244; 08-23-2019, 10:13 AM.


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                            Wait which comic had the Joker shoot the Waynes?
                            He's referring to the 1989 movie.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                              He's referring to the 1989 movie.
                              That is indeed the case.


                              And stuff.
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