Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How is your party using Resources?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    If you feel the need to differentiate that’s up to you my main concern was whether it was largely cashless society or not.

    Comment


    • #47
      Weird or contradictory as it may sound, most people not having cash most of the time does not a cashless society make. They still use it, even if they don’t have it.

      Comment


      • #48
        I had a notion of continuing to argue in more detail, but… eh. If you’re playing it how you want to play it, no argument feels effective or worth the effort. I feel as though my perspective on the subject has been thoroughly established by this point.

        So just a few stray thoughts:
        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
        Beast just thinks its funny to have a feral Lunar who has all these jewels and has no idea that they're worth so much.
        I just want to say that these frequent references to a character that is reminiscent of the narrative of the ignorant indigenous person who is sitting unknowingly upon resources valued by more “civilized” folks who can easily take them for a ride has been making me super uncomfortable, not least with the use of the term “feral”. But I don’t know how it’s being played, maybe the feral person is actually somebody who was raised without human contact and has a number of deep running issues that are treated seriously of which “doesn’t know what is rare and aesthetically pleasing” is merely the element that intersects with this particular topic.

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
        My point was... who buys 30 suits of lamellar armour, 30 short swords, 30 spears, 30 helmets and 30 shields? And how do you even get it to the shop? Because they're going to find it difficult to shift. Maybe if you can sell them to the local army, but presumably that's the army you just attacked.
        If you've got your own army, then pillaging is always popular, but for just, say, 5 PCs, looting the dead isn't going to be all that lucrative in terms of resale value (though they may be carrying cash at least). I mean you'll make some money, but not a ton of Resources.
        This sends my thoughts off into a tangent about the image of a mere circle of Exalted all on their own being trailed by a group of camp followers, who aren’t strictly affiliated with the circle but have begun trailing in their wake out of a combination of awe and opportunism; that is, they know it’s likely that there’s going to be something worthwhile to clean up after for most of the battles of those Exalted, and maybe even the chance to get in on the ground floor if they found a city or something. People who might occasionally send representatives forging ahead to place tribute before the circle, even if most of the time they’re carefully keeping their distance.

        In any case, second hand merchant buys all of that stuff. They could transport it with, like, two wagons.

        Do people often portray their circles as travelling with a wagon and/or pack animal? Seems like it would be practical. Keychain of Creation had a wagon.

        I’ve got this idea of a Lunar guerrilla fighter leading a group of raiders, and the secret to their remarkable high mobility in escape after having approached very carefully and stealthily is that the Lunar turns a bunch of the raiders with him into horses when the time comes to carry all of their plunder away.

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
        I just said live off the tax, not, say, hire an army. You don't need very effective tax collection to just live in your big house and not have to do manual labour (well, as long as you seize control of a place that already has a tax collection system, as the PCs generally do).
        What does seizing control even entail under these circumstances? Have they killed anyone, or do they just roll in with a flag and a gun from the National Rifle Association and assert that everybody works for them now?

        I find the assertion of not needing much effort or accounting to collect taxes or other forms of revenue (often erroneously referred to as taxes) just because it’s a small amount to be rather naïve. Especially in this scenario where the Exalted in question don’t seem to be even offering a veneer of justification for their collections. “Give us a portion of your money so that we can live comfortably… just because.” Yeah sign me up for that. Governments and landlords have offered the populace a lot more that they’ve alternately resisted paying or gotten up in arms about.

        One thing that’s funny to me in reading about European territorial history that surprisingly doesn’t seem to come up a lot in fiction is the frequency of occasions in which fiefdoms that correspond in many practical respects to the borders and institutions of administrative divisions or even entire nation states are simply… purchased. Whole countries being something whose ruling dynasties shift (or conflicts between personalities resolved) by exchanging cash and deeds. Stuff that happened as late as the 18th century. We don’t really hear about it much; I feel as though a lot of our conception of history and fiction inspired by it has become so heavily shaped by a world in which the nation state is the norm that we project it back across a history of presumed powerful monarchs, or at least clear pyramidal hierarchies, overlooking just how messy feudal relations made various kinds of territorial division and administrative system.

        It's just interesting to think about the manner in which that keeps certain options off of the table when approaching Exalted.

        Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz
        So they don't actually need any money.
        Sure they do. It's simply being provided by the largesse of another. It's just them begging without needing to carry the bowl.

        See how little money they need should rich businesswoman stop liking them, or have a sudden downturn that removes the ability to support tenants who don't pay rent, or dies.

        (The world is fiction, so these things can't happen without the command of a Storyteller of course, I just don't care for phrasing it in that manner. There's a difference between not needing money and not needing to work.)


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
        https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
          I had a notion of continuing to argue in more detail, but… eh. If you’re playing it how you want to play it, no argument feels effective or worth the effort. I feel as though my perspective on the subject has been thoroughly established by this point.
          I replied to your other thoughts, but then I realised I'm not sure which bit you don't want to argue about. And sometimes when I'm tired of a conversation, but I see replies, I feel I have to reply.

          So I've put my responses in spoilers, you can just ignore them if you want. Don't feel obligated to reply. Or reply to the bits you find interesting and not the other parts.


          maybe the feral person is actually somebody who was raised without human contact and has a number of deep running issues that are treated seriously of which “doesn’t know what is rare and aesthetically pleasing” is merely the element that intersects with this particular topic.
          Yeah, he was literally raised by apes and a talking bear. There's a lot of things he finds weird and confusing about the world of humans.

          He also does know they're aesthetically pleasing, he's just confused why you'd value them more than, say, a cow, which is clearly more useful.


          This sends my thoughts off into a tangent about the image of a mere circle of Exalted all on their own being trailed by a group of camp followers, who aren’t strictly affiliated with the circle but have begun trailing in their wake out of a combination of awe and opportunism; that is, they know it’s likely that there’s going to be something worthwhile to clean up after for most of the battles of those Exalted, and maybe even the chance to get in on the ground floor if they found a city or something. People who might occasionally send representatives forging ahead to place tribute before the circle, even if most of the time they’re carefully keeping their distance.
          Hmmm, that's an interesting idea. Though, while I mentioned that I didn't think it was that profitable to kill enemies, loot their corpses, even besides that I hope most PCs are not slaughtering so many enemies as to attract camp followers to just a band of 5 exalts, because that just seems, well, pretty awful. But I guess it can happen. And that doesn't mean you can't do stuff with the idea.

          Do people often portray their circles as travelling with a wagon and/or pack animal?
          One of the PCs in my Lunar game has a horse and cart. It's been repeatedly very awkward, unfortunately, because it's so slow compared to turning into a pack of wolves, or birds, or going on a boat. Luckily they eventually convinced him to let them take the cart apart to put on the boat, then put it back together when they reach land.


          What does seizing control even entail under these circumstances? Have they killed anyone,
          Generally. Sometimes the ruler so they can replace him with a puppet or themselves, sometimes just people who try and attack them for taking control of the ruler.

          Last session we drove off a sorcerer-king and seized his giant walking fortress, so we didn't kill him, but the Night Caste did kill some guards. Then we threw some minotaurs off the castle to their deaths for sexually abusing their underlings (also the Dawn Caste serving as chief judge, for tyranny and abusing the law, but he didn't die), but we decided to stop until we'd come up with a new legal code that could help the locals resolve the issues of having been members of a brutal military hierarchy with an uncaring ruler for years, allowing abuse to occur in all parts of society, making it hard to judge who's truly guilty. (There was also an argument about whether the law should be based on the subjective beliefs of the locals, or on objective right and wrong. My Zenith monk insisted it should be on objective right and wrong, but the other two judges argued that a man who's taken part in multiple human sacrifices to the Neverborn isn't someone to decide what's objectively right and wrong.)
          So, probably next session I'll have to check who's lying and who's not at the trials by the new Truth and Reconciliation commission, but I'm not sure who'll do the killing. Might be us, might be the minotaurs and fox-folk.

          Anyway, so now my monk lives at the top of a giant walking fortress to whom cowed tribes of talking animals offer regular tributes of slaves and food. We turned down the tribute, for now he can just eat gruel with the soldiers, there's a two week supply. This is one of the more moral bands of PCs (shockingly, considering it has a warlord and an assassin), I think the other groups would be happy to just live off the food tribute for a while.

          (Also, this is deep in the wyld in a land of talking animals who thaw out on rising islands then die when they get too close to the sun, so you have to keep moving between islands... anyway, there's no humans besides us, and no money.)

          I find the assertion of not needing much effort or accounting to collect taxes or other forms of revenue (often erroneously referred to as taxes) just because it’s a small amount to be rather naïve.
          Oh, someone's doing a lot to collect taxes. Bureaucrats, officials, soldiers. Just not generally the new Solar Prince, King's favourite, King's advisor, or one time the chief inquisitors. (I really felt sorry for the Djala that time.)

          One thing that’s funny to me in reading about European territorial history that surprisingly doesn’t seem to come up a lot in fiction is the frequency of occasions in which fiefdoms that correspond in many practical respects to the borders and institutions of administrative divisions or even entire nation states are simply… purchased. Whole countries being something whose ruling dynasties shift (or conflicts between personalities resolved) by exchanging cash and deeds. Stuff that happened as late as the 18th century. We don’t really hear about it much
          Well it did come up again recently with Trump asking to buy Greenland the way they bought Alaska. But no, it doesn't come up in fiction, though I think your other point about messy feudal relations is probably more relevant to Exalted (hence the whole "feudalism didn't exist" thing amongst medievalists now).

          I did something with that, with various cities and nomadic tribes who owed fealty to Kings and Queens in different individual ways, but the PCs didn't really investigate it, they weren't that interested. Which did let them get somewhat outmaneuvered by a local Fire-Aspected noble who understood this better than them, but at the end of the day they'd got what they wanted from that kingdom by then anyway, and she couldn't do much against them.
          Similarly, there's a very complicated situation with different tribes' views of their relationship with the monarchy and the Eclipse PC who married the aforementioned queen's daughter to legitimise her own rule, which the Eclipse hasn't put much attention into, but then she's trying to completely transform their society anyway, so just tends to ignore any issues about legal views of feudal relations and throw mind control everywhere.


          Sure they do. It's simply being provided by the largesse of another. It's just them begging without needing to carry the bowl. See how little money they need should rich businesswoman stop liking them, or have a sudden downturn that removes the ability to support tenants who don't pay rent, or dies.

          (The world is fiction, so these things can't happen without the command of a Storyteller of course, I just don't care for phrasing it in that manner. There's a difference between not needing money and not needing to work.)
          Well, I'm not really disagreeing with you there; my point wasn't that they don't need to think about how they get food, shelter, etc, or that they might not need to work. It's that they don't need to worry about money, specifically, or an official paid job.

          (Actually, there has been a change; my Monk is now living in a sorcerer's tower, the other monk is a slave in the bilges of the ship of a mad warlord. Which sucks for him, but again, he doesn't need cash.)

          I also mentioned Lunars; they can just live in the wilderness if they wish as animals. Obviously a lot of Lunar PCs will want it to buy things; but others won't care. My old Lunar sorcerer either ate food his son-in-law provided, or he just went hunting for mice in his owl form. Sometimes he lived in his son-in-law's house, sometimes he slept in the woods. The only time he needed money was to take his son-in-law to the pub, tbh.
          Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 08-26-2019, 05:18 PM.


          My characters:
          Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
          Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
          Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            a combination of awe and opportunism
            Awepportunism?

            ​(I'm so, so sorry.)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post
              If you feel the need to differentiate that’s up to you my main concern was whether it was largely cashless society or not.
              Depends how close they are to subsistence.

              Generally speaking, peasant farmers will sometimes have some surplus, and then sell it at a market town for cash. (Whether they have a surplus depends less on the soil than you might think, and more on taxes. Medieval taxes in western Europe on serfs were very, very high. East Germany was lower. Not sure about Russia or Poland) Cash which they'll likely immediately spend in the market town on new tools, shoes, and animals if they can afford it; money doesn't do anything, after all.

              On the other hand, the Inuit didn't used to use cash at all. It is possible to have a cashless society, but it generally is in places with low populations and little surplus.

              (And "cash" can take many forms. The Aztecs used a variety of items as money with discrete values, even including cocoa.)


              (In the game I run, there's a Danish-esque area of farmers, who might have a little money if the harvest is good; a clan of miners who live underground, who absolutely do need money so they can exchange the metals they sell for food; some trading and fishing towns of ratfolk/lobsterfolk/orcafolk who use money for trade, though your average fisherwoman may not have any money on them most of the time; and an Inuit-esque group out in the further reaches who herd Mammoth. That last one rarely use money, and are more likely to just trade furs and mammoth-ivory straight for iron blades and tools.)
              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 08-26-2019, 05:32 PM.


              My characters:
              Dr Soma Vaidya, viper-totem Lunar and kung-fu doctor
              Brother Alazar, Zenith occultist and last survivor of the Black Monastery of Leng
              Shadow of Kings, Twilight barbarian scholar, master of lost First Age crafting techniques. Has a lot of clones. Picture by Jen.

              Comment

              Working...
              X