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How does Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit compare to Strength of Stone Technique?

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  • How does Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit compare to Strength of Stone Technique?

    Strength of Stone Technique is an Athletics 3, Essence 1 Charm that any Terrestrial PC can learn.

    Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit is a Resistance 5. Essence 3 Signature Charm that not every Terrestrial PC can learn, but that every Fire Aspect must learn for their second Resistance Signature Charm.


    Strength of Stone Technique doesn't require an Aura to activate, lasts for the rest of the scene regardless of what Auras you gain or lose, and can be used to generate an Earth Aura.

    Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit cannot generate an Aura, requires a Fire Aura to activate, and will end if you lose that Aura.


    Both cost a point of Willpower and give you one bonus dot of Strength, with both Charms applying that bonus to all of the same things.

    Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit negates one point of wound penalties, but costs you one health level of aggravated damage when you first activate it, further costs you one point of Initiative at the end of each round in which it was active, and prevents your Stamina from applying to your soak for as long as it is active.


    Strength of Stone Technique requires you to commit one mote, and does not give you any bonus dice.

    Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit requires you to commit six motes, and gives you the lesser of (Essence) or (Stamina) bonus dice to feats of strength, Athletics-based rushes, and attacks. These dice count against your dice-adding limits, and cannot exceed your dice-adding limits for Athletics or any attack Ability.


    I could be wrong, but if Strength of Stone Technique compares so favorably to a Signature Charm, that Signature Charm might need a buff.



    At Essence 3 with RFDS and its 5 additionally committed motes (6 motes total), you need Stamina 3 to get a maximum of 3 bonus dice (only if you have Stamina 3), which is strictly inferior to using any Excellency for an attack Ability rating 3 or greater, and not necessarily better than Effortlessly Rising Flame's automatic successes, as RFDS's dice bonus doesn't provide any Excellency's bonus effect.

    In battle, you respire 5 motes at the end of each round. You cannot respire committed motes. Since all Excellencies are instant in duration, motes spent on them are never committed, and so can always be respired.

    So in order to get any benefit from RFDS's greater mote commitment, you would need to spend every turn making at least one of the actions that benefit from RFDS's dice-bonus (Athletics-based feat of strength, Athletics-based rush, or attack of any sort), and at least two of those turns flurrying two of those actions (to make up for the turn you spent activating the Charm, in which you could perform none of these actions).

    Even then, as long as your dice-caps for each kind of action are 3 or higher, you only save a total of 2 motes per turn in which you flurry. Further, each action suffers a -3 dice penalty, which wipes out the dice bonus. If your dice-cap is lower than 3 for either or both actions, you only mitigate the flurry penalty. Again, you’re also not getting the bonus effect of any given Excellency.

    Additionally, you suffer a -1 Defense penalty for flurrying, which is not a good combination with the loss of Stamina from your soak and the constant Initiative drain.

    As an alternative to flurrying, you could use Blazing Interception, Fire Incites Water to a Riot of Clouds, and/or Unassailable Body of Fire... if you know, want to use, or even can use any of those Charms.

    Unassailable Body of Fire requires you to succeed with Hopping Firecracker Evasion (which probably requires you to spend motes on Threshold-Warding Stance and other Dodge Charms).

    Blazing Interception can only be used while defending another character and is a Decisive attack that resets you to base Initiative (when you may have already reset to base Initiative on your previous turn)

    Fire Incites Water to a Riot of Clouds is the only one of these three Charms that benefits from a bonus dot of Strength, but that dot could come from Strength of Stone Technique just as easily. Also, the Charm is Essence 4, so relying on it to make RFDS viable is effectively raising RFDS's minimum Essence by one dot.


    At Essence 5, you need a Stamina rating of 5 to get 5 bonus dice for those 5 more committed motes, which is still strictly inferior to using an Excellency, since if you do not have a rating of 5 in the Ability of that Excellency, then you cannot apply all of those bonus dice to begin with, and you're still not getting the Excellency's bonus effect.


    I'm not sure any Fire Aspect would risk learning Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit except as their second Resistance Signature Charm at Essence 5, when they would be more likely to have all of the other trait ratings and Charms necessary to make it worth using to offset all of the Charm's disadvantages compared to Strength of Stone Technique.

    Until then, it's just so much easier for them to use Strength of Stone Technique.
    Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 08-29-2019, 03:10 PM.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

  • #2
    As another point of comparison, Embracing the Violent Flow, the Water Signature Brawl Charm, allows you to ignore all penalties for flurrying unarmed attacks (which may be Martial Arts attacks) made with the water tendrils with other physical actions like scaling walls (so, potentially a rush action) or lifting a portcullis (a feat of strength action).

    These attacks enjoy the Disarming and Flexible tags, a non-Charm bonus die to attack and damage rolls (like a bonus Strength dot, but also for decisive attacks), +(Strength) Overwhelming, and can be made out to short range.

    Embracing the Violent Flow also imposes no particular vulnerabilities on the Terrestrial, doesn't inflict aggravated health to activate, and doesn't drain Initiative, all of which justifies the Charm's mote commitment.


    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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    • #3
      News At 10: A Dragon-Blooded Charm sucks.


      Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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      • #4
        Went back and corrected something:

        In order to get the benefit of Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit's committed cost, you would need to flurry on at least TWO turns, to make up for the turn spent activating the Charm, since you couldn't perform ANY dice-bonus action on that turn.


        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

        Comment


        • #5
          How to begin buffing this Charm?


          A) Remove all of the disadvantages it imposes compared to Strength of Stone Technique? Including the aggravated wound.

          B) The Charm could be made Reflexive instead of Simple, so that you can start benefiting from its dice-bonuses immediately instead of having to wait until the next round to start flurrying rushes, feats of strength, and attacks. Likewise, it could lose the Aura Keyword and Duration.

          C) If you replace the dice-bonus with a total penalty negation for flurries including only some combination of attack, Athletics-based rush, or Athletics-based feat of strength, that would seem to encourage the sorts of behavior the Charm is meant to encourage, while letting you use your actual Excellencies to get their bonus effects. You could get much higher dice-pools, but you need to pay more for them than this Charm's cost.


          Not sure any of these quite work.


          Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

          My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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          • #6
            I think making it reflexive would probably be enough. Maybe it’s because I played the absolute crap out of 2e but I’m always wary of any charm that gives a scenelong free excellency. Infinite (Ability) mastery was one of the biggest problems with 2e combat. You also missed three charms in your melee overview, Portenteous Comet Deflection, Burning Pinnacle Strike and Harnessed Firestorm Assault.

            If you could reflexively enter the charm, which I think would be a good fix, you could attack turn one, enter fire aura, reflexively enter Fire Dragon Spirit, reflexively clash with Cloud Riot, reflexively attack again with Burning Pinnacle Strike, and then next turn activate Harnessed Firestorm Assault for 3 attacks. The best part is after all that your melee excellency is probably going to be full or nearly full, so even though you leave aura you’re sitting at a full discounted excellency anyway.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
              I think making it reflexive would probably be enough. Maybe it’s because I played the absolute crap out of 2e but I’m always wary of any charm that gives a scenelong free excellency. Infinite (Ability) mastery was one of the biggest problems with 2e combat.
              Yes, but this isn't quite that, especially with mote respiration every round for everyone, and this Charm's crippling punishments.


              You also missed three charms in your melee overview, Portenteous Comet Deflection, Burning Pinnacle Strike and Harnessed Firestorm Assault.
              Portentous Comet Deflection counts as your attack for the round if you don't spend your Fire Aura, and if you do spend your Fire Aura you lose Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit. So you can't (I think?) use Portentous Comet Deflection in the round that you activate Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit, or until after your next turn. On that next turn, you could do a rush or feat of strength or a flurry of the two, and save your attack for the round to prime Portenous Comet Deflection without spending your Fire Aura.

              Burning Pinnacle Strike is truly an oversight on my part.

              Your oversight is that Harnessed Firestorm Assault cannot be used at all without spending a Fire Aura, and so it is completely incompatible with Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit.

              Which is why the exact combo-chain attack you outline would demand more changes than simply making RFDS into a Reflexive Charm.
              Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 08-29-2019, 04:49 PM.


              Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

              My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Yes, but this isn't quite that, especially with mote respiration every round for everyone, and this Charm's crippling punishments.
                Yeah it's really the punishments that balance it. In 2e there wasn't a flat mote regen per turn but stunts gave motes back, I(A)M went to hell and it needs to stay there, but RFDS isn't IAM, I just have a sore spot for those kinds of effects.

                Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                Your oversight is that Harnessed Firestorm Assault cannot be used at all without spending a Fire Aura, and so it is completely incompatible with Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit.

                Which is why the exact combo-chain attack you outline would demand more changes than simply making RFDS into a Reflexive Charm.
                Ah right right, you lose Aura before you start attacking because it's part of the cost. I knew about PCDF but included it as you can perform other actions on your turn and benefit from RFDS using it. I don't know if we can drop the aura duration into scenelong and make it reflexive at the same time though. What if you could activate it at the start of your turn out of Aura and then it's duration is as long as the Aura that activates at the end of that turn?

                This is really hard, because you've got to balance it against Essence 5 as well, and an Essence 5 Fire Melee fighter can do a really stupid amount of attacks, and any clashes can get 5 non-charm dice for 5m. What if it was reflexive, added the greater of Essence or Stamina, but still had Aura duration?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                  Yeah it's really the punishments that balance it.
                  Only at Essence 5, and then only if you’re a Melee Master.

                  At Essence 3, it’s lukewarm, and with any other attack Ability, it is ice-cold.

                  It really seems to be a misplaced Melee Charm. It doesn’t even help with Fire Dragon Style as much as it does the Steel Devil and Shining Point Styles, neither of which allow unarmed attacks. Well, there’s also Tiger Style.



                  I knew about PCDF but included it as you can perform other actions on your turn and benefit from RFDS using it.
                  You’re right and it deserved to be mentioned.


                  I don't know if we can drop the aura duration into scene-long and make it reflexive at the same time though.
                  I don’t think it needs to lose the Aura duration, necessarily, but it could stand to lose the health cost and Initiative bleed.


                  What if you could activate it at the start of your turn out of Aura and then it's duration is as long as the Aura that activates at the end of that turn?
                  Maybe if you start a round at a higher Initiative than all opponents? And if you already have a Fire Aura, you can ignore Initiative.


                  This is really hard, because you've got to balance it against Essence 5 as well, and an Essence 5 Fire Melee fighter can do a really stupid amount of attacks, and any clashes can get 5 non-charm dice for 5m. What if it was reflexive, added the greater of Essence or Stamina, but still had Aura duration?
                  What if instead of a dice-bonus, it gave you one full free Athletics or attack Excellency per turn/round? That would reduce the Melee cheese.

                  It can keep the punishments if you also include flurry penalty forgiveness for an Athletics action with an attack or another Athletics action.


                  Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                  My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                  • #10
                    How does this look?

                    I think this improves the Charm's strength at Essence 3 and reduces it at Essence 5. It's still most compatible with Melee and other sources of clash and counterattack Charms, but nowhere near as cheesy with such Abilities.


                    Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit - The Dragon-Blood unleashes the deepest flames of her vitality, awakening the deadly force of her inner fire. Her body becomes faster and stronger at the cost of risking exhaustion or death.

                    Cost:
                    6m, 1wp, 1ahl
                    Type: Simple
                    Duration: Aura
                    Keywords: Aura, Signature (Fire); Resistance 5, Essence 3; No Prerequisites

                    She gains a bonus dot of Strength, ignores a single point of wound penalty, ignores all penalties to flurries which contain only Athletics-based actions and attacks, and once per round may fully discount the cost of Effortlessly Rising Flame for one Athletics-based action or any Excellency used to supplement a single attack roll. She does not need to know the Excellency to receive the bonus dice, but she will only enjoy the additional bonus effect of an Excellency she possesses.

                    While this Charm is active, her Stamina doesn’t add to her soak (rendering Impervious Skin of Stone completely ineffective) and she loses one point of Initiative at the end of each round in which the Charm did not end at the beginning of her turn.


                    Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                    My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                    • #11
                      It looks better, I definitely think we need to keep the loss of stamina to soak, but being both simple and aura still means you only get a benefit from it starting turn 3 of combat. I think it needs to be reflexive but otherwise I like it.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                        It looks better, I definitely think we need to keep the loss of stamina to soak, but being both simple and aura still means you only get a benefit from it starting turn 3 of combat. I think it needs to be reflexive but otherwise I like it.
                        I agree, but I wanted to keep the initial changes relatively modest.

                        ...Though actually, just changing the Type doesn't seem a radical change on top of everything else.

                        This way, the Charm could offer benefits as soon as Round 1, though only after your turn, and only if you have a way to roll an attack outside of your first turn. If you can't do that, you could wait to activate the Charm until after everyone's acted before you in Round 2, or at the start of your turn. This would reduce the window of time in which you are vulnerable without actually capable of leveraging your boosted power.


                        Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit - The Dragon-Blood unleashes the deepest flames of her vitality, awakening the deadly force of her inner fire. Her body becomes faster and stronger at the cost of risking exhaustion or death.

                        Cost:
                        6m, 1wp, 1ahl
                        Type: Reflexive
                        Duration: Aura
                        Keywords: Aura, Signature (Fire)
                        Minimums: Resistance 5, Essence 3
                        Prerequisites: None

                        She gains a bonus dot of Strength, ignores a single point of wound penalty, ignores all penalties to flurries which contain only Athletics-based actions and attacks, and once per round may fully discount the cost of Effortlessly Rising Flame for one Athletics-based action or any Excellency used to supplement a single attack roll. She does not need to know the Excellency to receive the bonus dice, but she will only enjoy the additional bonus effect of an Excellency she possesses.

                        While this Charm is active, her Stamina doesn’t add to her soak (rendering Impervious Skin of Stone completely ineffective) and she loses one point of Initiative at the end of each round in which the Charm did not end at the beginning of her turn.


                        Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                        My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yep, I'd say that looks good to me. Whenever you have a need to flurry a rush with an attack it sparks JUST into "man, maybe this is too good." but those times are relatively rare and signature charms are supposed to do that. It more just lets you attempt fun stunty feats of strength and stuff while attacking with a full free excellency and bonus withering damage. Or attacking normally while attempting a giant free excellency demolition on the building your in with no penalty.

                          I'm wondering if Stamina shouldn't still be involved though, what if once per round it discounted the cost of an athletics or attack roll excellency by (Stamina + 1)? Oh or maybe better yet it discounts at will, but only up to that cap, so if you want you can spend 3 of the free dice on your Feat of Strength and 3 on the attack roll? The charm remains really powerful, even if you've got 4 strength and maxed combat or athletics pools 5/6th discounted excellency is not bad, and it doesn't incentivize dumping stamina.

                          Something like this:

                          Oh also benefit of it being reflexive, even if you don't go last in the combat you can just reflexively activate it right before your next turn anyway.


                          Raging Fire-Dragon Spirit - The Dragon-Blood unleashes the deepest flames of her vitality, awakening the deadly force of her inner fire. Her body becomes faster and stronger at the cost of risking exhaustion or death.

                          Cost:
                          6m, 1wp, 1ahl
                          Type: Reflexive
                          Duration: Aura
                          Keywords: Aura, Signature (Fire)
                          Minimums: Resistance 5, Essence 3
                          Prerequisites: None

                          She gains a bonus dot of Strength, ignores a single point of wound penalty, ignores all penalties to flurries which contain only Athletics-based actions and attacks. She also gains a pool of dice equal to her (Stamina + 1) that she may use each round to enhance either an Athletics roll, or an attack. If she is flurrying two actions she may choose to divide the dice between both actions.

                          While this Charm is active, her Stamina doesn’t add to her soak (rendering Impervious Skin of Stone completely ineffective) and she loses one point of Initiative at the end of each round in which the Charm did not end at the beginning of her turn.
                          Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 08-30-2019, 12:22 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                            She also gains a pool of dice equal to her (Stamina + 1) that she may use each round to enhance either an Athletics roll, or an attack. If she is flurrying two actions she may choose to divide the dice between both actions.
                            Messier than a free Excellency, but an interesting way to keep Stamina involved.

                            Reintroducing Stamina as a limit reduces the power of the Charm, but that might be counter-balanced by the change from Simple to Reflexive. Also, it feels better to have Stamina feel like it is contributing something.

                            Being able to spread the dice around is what makes things messy, especially when you start using Excellencies to top-off dice pools and access their bonus effects.

                            But being able to spread the dice around helps you get the most benefit out of the replenishing Stamina dice pool even when you're running into dice-adding limits.


                            Formerly Inugami, formerly Tornado Wolf.

                            My RWBY Blog on Tumblr: Semblances, Kingdoms, Grimm, and more!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
                              Messier than a free Excellency, but an interesting way to keep Stamina involved.

                              Reintroducing Stamina as a limit reduces the power of the Charm, but that might be counter-balanced by the change from Simple to Reflexive. Also, it feels better to have Stamina feel like it is contributing something.

                              Being able to spread the dice around is what makes things messy, especially when you start using Excellencies to top-off dice pools and access their bonus effects.

                              But being able to spread the dice around helps you get the most benefit out of the replenishing Stamina dice pool even when you're running into dice-adding limits.
                              Yeah, another thing I realized it could help with is if you're already getting dice from somewhere, like say the melee excellency discount or Sky Calming Draw's auto-success it frees up some of your bonus dice to use on your other action. It IS messy though, the last thing exalted needs is something else to track, but it could lead to some cool stuff.

                              EDIT: I also like the idea that, optimally, you still have like 4-5 stamina, so you go from this warrior with a pretty tanky soak and maybe slightly lower accuracy/damage because of it, and then ignite into a beast that sacrifices that big defense for an all-out aggressive flurry of tearing down stone towers and hurling the rubble at foes.
                              Last edited by DrLoveMonkey; 08-30-2019, 12:48 AM.

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