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What combat builds have you found the most fun?

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  • What combat builds have you found the most fun?

    I generally find 3rd Exalted combat quite fun (well, for about an hour, obviously it can drag on. Way less than 2nd ed combat though, probably because there's less multi-attacking).

    But my two current characters' combat builds I haven't found that fun (I actually find the combats fun, but not the charms they have, if you see what I mean).

    My Zenith, Brother Alazar, has almost all of Tiger Style (not the pinnacle), but I find rushes and ambushes don't come up that much (ambushes probably would if I'd built him for stealth, but I haven't, it's just Tiger Style has some Stealth attack charms), and so it mostly involves me going "hmmm, if I use these three or four charms to enhance this I can do a little bit more damage" which is a fairly large cognitive load for little benefit (also, he's terrible at getting through armour).

    My Full Moon is way better at combat, but, not including excellencies, she has 25 combat charms. Her build is Snake Style and Poison charms, with a bit of general Dex-enhancers, and... it's really over-complicated for not a ton of benefit I feel. In combat, I find myself constantly looking through a heap of charms trying to find what I want to do, and then when I hit someone and poison them... it's not all that interesting?


    Whereas my old No Moon, while not very good at combat, fought by turning into a bear, hippo, wolf, horse, giant rat with tentacles for arms, massive mutant monstrosity DBT, etc. That was reasonably simple (animals aren't simple, but once you've picked the one you're using in this fight, it's not too complex) but had plenty going on, and just kind of looked cool.

    And playing a stealth fighter, which I did a bit with my Night (he didn't have that many charms, and only used it in a couple of fights), seemed quite fun, but I didn't really get to grips with it so I'm not sure. I could see that it can be awkward when fighting alongside other PCs. Not sure.
    I also enjoyed fighting in a warstrider, but I only got to do that once. It seems to be one of those builds that's quite conditional (in the sense that most of the time you can't bring your warstrider to a fight).

    Grappling I've found over-complex (my players sigh and go "I've already made 3 rolls, now I've got to make more to do the actual damage?"), but the Solar charm where you throw your victim into another enemy and cause a huge shockwave, or use your victim to parry, are quite fun.


    So what combat builds have you found the most fun? What had the coolest moments and stunt fodder? Which did you find overly-complex or too conditional to be as good as you thought it'd be? Which were powerful but boring, or fun but weak?

    Oh, I'm also interested in people combining lots of Martial Arts. It's supposed to be really good, but I wonder if it's hard to keep track of at high-levels.

    (This question is about both Solars and Lunars. Though if you've got something to say about Dragonblood, go for it. I'm also interested in both Offence and Defence)
    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 08-31-2019, 02:12 PM.

  • Lioness
    replied
    Originally posted by Beast of Bitter Oblivion View Post
    The stat skew makes them look either unbelievable or outright retarded.
    Can we express ourselves without that word, please?

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  • Synapse
    replied
    Originally posted by Elkovash View Post
    So, I checked myself and Gambits are ‘lost initiative’ not a ‘cost’. So technically you don’t need the initiative required- it does specify though that you cannot attempt a gambit that ‘would put you in crash’. I’m guessing there is wriggle room there if you are already crashed, but I feel like the intent is clear enough.
    Gambits are decisive attacks, which are forbidden in crash.

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  • Elkovash
    replied
    Originally posted by Epitome View Post
    Oh the Vicious Lunge letting you grapple while crashed is word of dev according to the player that uses this strat, but I haven't found that quote myself, so I can't confirm that it's true.
    Vicious lunge might give you dice you wouldn’t ordinarily have to make a grapple gambit check if you have negative initiative, but it doesn’t actually give you the initiative you need to spend even attempt the grapple. Thus, it should not be able to be used in crash.

    If a dev has said otherwise (I doubt it) I humbly submit that they are just wrong.


    Edit to provide more specific information;

    So, I checked myself and Gambits are ‘lost initiative’ not a ‘cost’. So technically you don’t need the initiative required- it does specify though that you cannot attempt a gambit that ‘would put you in crash’. I’m guessing there is wriggle room there if you are already crashed, but I feel like the intent is clear enough.
    Last edited by Elkovash; 09-16-2019, 12:56 AM.

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  • Epitome
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Assuming they don't kill you or immobilize you or get out of your range of engagement before that point, anyway.
    Obviously if your ST likes to throw Solars or Single Point stylists at you that strat falls apart quickly, but against most spirits and a fair share of Legendary size enemies there isn't much they can do.

    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post

    I think the biggest risk is actually getting intentionally crashed off the hop and really hoping your decisive grapple gambit lands, especially since I don't think Vicious Lunge actually does let you grapple from crash. Even if it does you're only going to get 3 dice to make that gambit roll.

    I mean, it doesn't really matter, if you decide to excellency your Join Battle, snatch them in a clinch, crash them with Titan Straightening Method, hit them again with Raging Wrath Repeated and then throw them with Shockwave Technique you're going to...do what a Supernal Solar does when spending at least 17 motes and 3 willpower.
    Well the crashing yourself bit is mostly just a neat bonus when you know the opponent can't kill you quickly, 3 dice to get 2 successes is the sort of needless risk that can turn a speed bump fight into an interesting one . As you note, even without taking that risk the opponent is still mostly dead.

    Oh the Vicious Lunge letting you grapple while crashed is word of dev according to the player that uses this strat, but I haven't found that quote myself, so I can't confirm that it's true.

    Originally posted by the_larz View Post

    Aha. Ok; understood. The way you had written it previously made it sound like it was all round 1; which was why I was confused. So, it's technically two rounds if all goes according to plan (TM). Still; pretty good strat that will work vs most things not prepared for it.
    Yeah I had misremembered it, I thought it was all round 1 but I asked the player who uses this strat and they corrected me.
    Last edited by Epitome; 09-15-2019, 11:30 PM.

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  • the_larz
    replied
    Originally posted by Epitome View Post

    I went directly to the source and asked the player, his strat that could one shot almost anything was this :

    1) Delay your 1st turn to act last. if you get crashed by your opponent during that time you are in the best possible position (you may even want to forego using an Excellency on your JB and refuse to apply your DV when the enemy attacks you if you feel confident).

    2) Grapple the opponent (Vicious Lunge lets you Grapple even while crashed) and throw everything you have at the enemy, lowering his ini below yours.

    3) New round begins, you act first, so it's still your turn! If the enemy is still not crashed unleash as many Withering Attacks as you need with Titan-Straightening Method (or just a plain old Withering Attack), then reset your turn with Raging Wrath Repeated.

    4) If you were previously crashed you get another free Withering attack after the opponent is crashed thanks to your initiative shift.

    5) Kill the enemy with Crashing Wave Throw, dealing ridiculous damage from all the initiative you got from your 0 DV Withering Attacks, plus 7 dice of Bashing and 4 automatic Lethal damage from dealing medium fall damage.

    So there you go - the moment you get your first turn, you get to unleash anywhere between 2 and 10 Withering Attacks against 0 DV, 1 Decisive Attack with all that stacked up ini, and then deal Medium fall damage to the enemy, all before their turn comes again.
    Aha. Ok; understood. The way you had written it previously made it sound like it was all round 1; which was why I was confused. So, it's technically two rounds if all goes according to plan (TM). Still; pretty good strat that will work vs most things not prepared for it.

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  • DrLoveMonkey
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
    Assuming they don't kill you or immobilize you or get out of your range of engagement before that point, anyway.
    I think the biggest risk is actually getting intentionally crashed off the hop and really hoping your decisive grapple gambit lands, especially since I don't think Vicious Lunge actually does let you grapple from crash. Even if it does you're only going to get 3 dice to make that gambit roll.

    I mean, it doesn't really matter, if you decide to excellency your Join Battle, snatch them in a clinch, crash them with Titan Straightening Method, hit them again with Raging Wrath Repeated and then throw them with Shockwave Technique you're going to...do what a Supernal Solar does when spending at least 17 motes and 3 willpower.

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  • TheCountAlucard
    replied
    Originally posted by Epitome View Post
    So there you go - the moment you get your first turn, you get to unleash anywhere between 2 and 10 Withering Attacks against 0 DV, 1 Decisive Attack with all that stacked up ini, and then deal Medium fall damage to the enemy, all before their turn comes again.
    Assuming they don't kill you or immobilize you or get out of your range of engagement before that point, anyway.

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  • Epitome
    replied
    Originally posted by the_larz View Post

    Titan-Straightening Method is a Simple charm. As far as I can tell, it doesn't generate a clinch attempt, but works on something you've already clinched. So, probably not able to activate it on the first round when you also had to initiate the grapple.
    I went directly to the source and asked the player, his strat that could one shot almost anything was this :

    1) Delay your 1st turn to act last. if you get crashed by your opponent during that time you are in the best possible position (you may even want to forego using an Excellency on your JB and refuse to apply your DV when the enemy attacks you if you feel confident).

    2) Grapple the opponent (Vicious Lunge lets you Grapple even while crashed) and throw everything you have at the enemy, lowering his ini below yours.

    3) New round begins, you act first, so it's still your turn! If the enemy is still not crashed unleash as many Withering Attacks as you need with Titan-Straightening Method (or just a plain old Withering Attack), then reset your turn with Raging Wrath Repeated.

    4) If you were previously crashed you get another free Withering attack after the opponent is crashed thanks to your initiative shift.

    5) Kill the enemy with Crashing Wave Throw, dealing ridiculous damage from all the initiative you got from your 0 DV Withering Attacks, plus 7 dice of Bashing and 4 automatic Lethal damage from dealing medium fall damage.

    So there you go - the moment you get your first turn, you get to unleash anywhere between 2 and 10 Withering Attacks against 0 DV, 1 Decisive Attack with all that stacked up ini, and then deal Medium fall damage to the enemy, all before their turn comes again.
    Last edited by Epitome; 09-15-2019, 06:20 PM.

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  • the_larz
    replied
    Originally posted by Epitome View Post
    I got it mixed up a bit, it's multiple Withering and 1 Decisive, but basically it's the last 2 Charms of Solar Grapple that do it : Titan-Straightening Method lets you give up your rounds of control in return for many Withering Attacks, and Raging Wrath Repeated resets your grapple to its beginning state and lets you attack immediately when you crash a grappled foe. So you devour all the opponent's ini with the 0 DV Withering attacks, and then because you crashed them you're back at full rounds of control and can immediately 0 DV Decisive them to death, dealing the full falling damage from Crashing Wave Throw as an added bonus.
    Titan-Straightening Method is a Simple charm. As far as I can tell, it doesn't generate a clinch attempt, but works on something you've already clinched. So, probably not able to activate it on the first round when you also had to initiate the grapple.

    But, certainly if you crash them with your initial grapple Withering crush, Raging Wrath Repeated makes for a nice 1-2 Decisive follow-up to potentially injure/kill someone on the first turn (Crashing Wave Throw being great for that.....yay "falling" (flying) damage. ) (Never noticed that it said it resets your combat action as well as your rounds of control..........that's really good.)

    That said, there are definitely some fun things on the grapple side of Brawl....but the mechanics for it are....cumbersome at best.

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  • prototype00
    replied
    Originally posted by Tymeaus Jalynsfein View Post

    Oops - Double Post

    Backflips do not require more than Average Ability... I know a lot of people who can do a backflip that are not all that dextrous, So, not a good metric in my opinion.
    So not that I'm wading into this particular fray again with any particular gusto but people seem to be confused about something:

    Dex 2 - The character’s Attribute is on the upper end of the human average

    Dex 3 - The character’s Attribute is a talent, visibly outstanding to others—he is “strong” or “smart” or “charismatic.”

    3 is not "Above average" it is considered one of your outstanding features. You are well known for this particular attribute.

    Now, ask yourself, in all the books and films and whatnot. Was the Mountain known to be a dexterous and quick individual? Was it one of his defining features? (I'm willing to accept quotes to prove me wrong).
    Last edited by prototype00; 09-13-2019, 12:58 PM.

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  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    Originally posted by prototype00 View Post
    Can the Mountain do backflips? That's what I would expect if his representative Dex was on tier with his Str. Not seen them yet, so he has normal Dex as far as Exalted defines it.
    Oops - Double Post

    Backflips do not require more than Average Ability... I know a lot of people who can do a backflip that are not all that dextrous, So, not a good metric in my opinion.

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  • Tymeaus Jalynsfein
    replied
    Originally posted by prototype00 View Post

    I can imagine someone with massive Str/Sta and completely average Dex, can’t you? (And if you can’t here’s help: The Mountain that Rides)
    The Mountain did not have "average" Dex... he was slightly above Average in my opinion (I would give him a 3)... he was exceptionally quick for his stature and size... as is the actor that played him.

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  • JohnDoe244
    replied
    Originally posted by Synapse View Post
    Just a https://imgur.com/a/QbC9V9Z"]friendly reminder[/URL] that this isn't Vampire. As The Wizard of Oz is saying, if you think up a character that is really damn fucking good at a thing, throwing 5s at that thing is perfectly in character.
    Yeah. Vampire is a game of personal horror. It's about normal people grappling with the concequences of being an undead monster and trying to hold on to your humanity.

    Exalted is a game of mythic fantasy. It's about being a hero of legend whose skills and deeds change the world.

    They're completely different genres. "Assassin raised from birth by a demon cult to be the ultimate killing machine" is literally an iconic character in Exalted but it's a pretty terrible concept for Vampire.

    If you were playing an RPG about Olympic Athletes, you'd have characters who were literally the best in the world at their chosen sport. That wouldn't be "min-maxing" or bad roleplaying. It would be appropriate for the genre.

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  • Epitome
    replied
    I got it mixed up a bit, it's multiple Withering and 1 Decisive, but basically it's the last 2 Charms of Solar Grapple that do it : Titan-Straightening Method lets you give up your rounds of control in return for many Withering Attacks, and Raging Wrath Repeated resets your grapple to its beginning state and lets you attack immediately when you crash a grappled foe. So you devour all the opponent's ini with the 0 DV Withering attacks, and then because you crashed them you're back at full rounds of control and can immediately 0 DV Decisive them to death, dealing the full falling damage from Crashing Wave Throw as an added bonus.
    Last edited by Epitome; 09-13-2019, 09:26 AM.

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