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  • #76
    Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
    That doesn’t mean you’re not the most important players though, especially if you were the one to unify them.
    Again, why are the PCs the one to unify them and not V'neef? What are the PCs doing to unify them that couldn't be done by The Slug? (Dance-off to save Creation, Kevin Bacon style?)

    What makes you "the most important players"?


    Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
      Again, why are the PCs the one to unify them and not V'neef? What are the PCs doing to unify them that couldn't be done by The Slug? (Dance-off to save Creation, Kevin Bacon style?)

      What makes you "the most important players"?
      What makes your Lunar PCs the most important players with elders like Leviathan and Ma-Ha-Suchi around? Why of all the returning 300 solaroids are your five the ones saving the world?

      Part of it isn’t even unrealistic, luck and circumstance both play a huge role in success. Not that hard work and skill aren’t part of it, of course.

      The other reason is that you don’t stay Essence 2. Unless you plan on solving all the ills of the Empire in ten sessions or less. You rise up from being “just” a very well off young Dynast, winning battles, renown, bringing home captured anathema, cooling rivalries or undercutting foes the whole time. Then when you’re an Essence 3-4 badass with a whole campaign of setup is when victory is within your grasp.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
        What makes your Lunar PCs the most important players with elders like Leviathan and Ma-Ha-Suchi around?
        Honestly? That's one of the reasons I don't like Lunars

        Why of all the returning 300 solaroids are your five the ones saving the world?
        I play Thousand Dooms. Whilst the PCs are burning down the Caul, some other plucky group of Solars are convincing Darktide to sail on Isle 5 with them whilst a certain other Solar is stopping Jacinct building a road from Malfeas to Nexus. Creation isn't on pause. This isn't a video game where the quest to kill the Vodak doesn't start until the PCs are ready for it. The other Solars are building their legend, and the Bull of the North is going to whoop your ass if you leave him unchecked.

        Part of it isn’t even unrealistic, luck and circumstance both play a huge role in success. Not that hard work and skill aren’t part of it, of course.
        How does a bastard, orphan, son of a whore and a Scotsman, dropped in the middle of a forgotten
        Spot in the Caribbean by providence, impoverished, in squalor Grow up to be a hero and a scholar?

        Having greatness thrust upon you only goes so far in a world where those who are born great or become great are as truly great as the Exalted. But you're right, it's a factor.

        The other reason is that you don’t stay Essence 2. Unless you plan on solving all the ills of the Empire in ten sessions or less. You rise up from being “just” a very well off young Dynast, winning battles, renown, bringing home captured anathema, cooling rivalries or undercutting foes the whole time. Then when you’re an Essence 3-4 badass with a whole campaign of setup is when victory is within your grasp.
        Sure, but what are you doing in those first 10 sessions and wouldn't you rather keep doing it?

        Who wants to hunt down the monsterous Wolf-of-Eyes and who wants to have high tea with V'neef?
        Who wants to rock the Threshold as a wandering hero, and who wants to see everything they've built burn down in a civil war?

        My favourite Realm Civil War game (where we put Kes on the throne) only turned into a civil war because I'd just picked up the new edition of Godlike and we were excited to try it out and wanted to wrap our game up.
        Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-09-2019, 06:11 PM.


        Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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        • #79
          By that same standard, one could ask what’s so special about the Starks.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
            By that same standard, one could ask what’s so special about the Starks.
            Au contraire, the Starks are established as one of the most powerful factions in the setting. Their Kingdom is as big as the other six combined. They're led by an elder war hero who wields the biggest, baddest blade of ancient power. They have the blood of the first men in their veins. It is established in chapter 1/episode 1 that Ned Stark could/should have been king and Sansa is set up as the heir apparent and future queen. They started play with three dot familiars in a world where magic was extinct. One of their scions is the rightful king, another a mystic master of magic (to say nothing of the master assassin). The Starks are House Mnemon to a tee.

            Plus half of them die in the process, one of them at what's basically the end of session 2.

            It's not like the Tully's won the war, or Hot Pie became the new king.

            The Starks started off better than everyone else, then got even better with experience. Then finally won after sacrificing everything they had. It's a compelling story but it doesn't make me wish I was Sansa, nor was the outcome some great surprise.

            The Founding Fathers is a far more compelling test case. But even then, it's not like Washington isn't basically a younger Cathak Cainan.
            Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-09-2019, 03:14 PM.


            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
              I play Thousand Dooms. Whilst the PCs are burning down the Caul, some other plucky group of Solars are convincing Darktide to sail on Isle 5 with them whilst a certain other Solar is stopping Jacient building a road from Malfeas to Nexus. Creation isn't on pause. This isn't a video game where the quest to kill the Vodak doesn't start until the PCs are ready for it. The other Solars are building their legend, and the Bull of the North is going to whoop your ass if you leave him unchecked.
              That’s kind of dodgy, what if the Solars who are stopping Jacinct fail? If they don’t all succeed doesn’t the doom that gets through just kill the world? Or what if like two of them fail and you’ve got Malfeas growing out of Nexus while the West falls to the control of Deathlords because you were in the south blocking a Wyld Crusade? Maybe one of them fails and your group now has to go deal with that, but isn’t it convenient that the other 95% of them all succeeded? That’s also making the whole Lunar war against the Realm kind of unimportant, if the world is mere moments away from being plunged into the abyss by some new Abyssal plot the Realm pretty much needs to take a back seat to that.


              Furthermore, why doesn’t that same logic apply to the Realm? If you’re just one of a thousand Essence 2 working your ass off to keep the Realm together from the thousand forces trying to tear it apart why isn’t that the same?
              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
              How does a bastard, orphan, son of a whore and a Scotsman, dropped in the middle of a forgotten
              Spot in the Caribbean by providence, impoverished, in squalor Grow up to be a hero and a scholar?

              Having greatness thrust upon you only goes so far in a world where those who are born great or become great are as truly great as the Exalted. But you're right, it's a factor.
              But you’re also exalted, right? The Scarlet Empress and her hearth single handedly stopped the Balorian crusade, Tepet Arada maneuvered into a position to kill Jochim and Fear Eater in personal combat. That kind of thing does happen in Exalted. And the real world, currently Jared Cushner is the US official in charge of peace in the Middle East and solving the opioid crisis and I don’t think it’s because of his legendary skill at statecraft.
              Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
              Sure, but what are you doing in those first 10 sessions and wouldn't you rather keep doing it?

              Who wants to hunt down the monsterous Wolf-of-Eyes and who wants to have high tea with V'neef?
              Who wants to rock the Threshold as a wandering hero, and who wants to see everything they've built burn down in a civil war?

              My favourite Realm Civil War game (where we put Kes on the throne) only turned into a civil war because I'd just picked up the new edition of Godlike and we were excited to try it out and wanted to wrap our game up.
              Well if I find out in the Threshold that a Deathlord is planning on releasing another even more terrifying Great Contagion, and I look over my shoulder at the Realm, the defenders of Creation as far as I’m concerned, and I see them squabbling and saber rattling at eachother instead of doing their damn job then yeah. I’m going to go back and snap my fingers in front of their faces like a dick and say “Hey hey hey! Assholes, and respected honourable family elders, the god damned world is about to end. Let’s fucking do something about it.”

              Either that or I just care about my family and don’t like seeing them in a war.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                That’s kind of dodgy, what if the Solars who are stopping Jacinct fail? If they don’t all succeed doesn’t the doom that gets through just kill the world? Or what if like two of them fail and you’ve got Malfeas growing out of Nexus while the West falls to the control of Deathlords because you were in the south blocking a Wyld Crusade? Maybe one of them fails and your group now has to go deal with that, but isn’t it convenient that the other 95% of them all succeeded?
                And yet people complain there's nothing to challenge Solars?

                I like that just as you're about to take your revenge on Maheka Dazan you see Juggernaut loom into view, mere hours after hearing the rumour of a dreadfleet sailing from Skullstone turning the waters of the West black with blood. It puts weight on what the PCs find important and gives you a reason to explore Creation.

                That’s also making the whole Lunar war against the Realm kind of unimportant,
                It is. Not in a "that's not important" way, but that war is two groups of Exalts fighting for thousands of years (hundreds of years after the apocalypse) because two different groups of Exalts were dicks.

                It's a never ending circle of death and violence and hate, and it's past time that someone broke the cycle, killed the spirit and threw the wheel to the ground.

                Plus, as discussed, it's kinda dull. Lunars have been fighting a war of attrition for three quarters of a century and now the Empress is missing (which probably has nothing to do with them) they can't lose.

                if the world is mere moments away from being plunged into the abyss by some new Abyssal plot the Realm pretty much needs to take a back seat to that.
                Unless that Abyssal is the Scarlet Phoenix Astride the World. Or you want to steer a Wyld Hunt/Ten Thousand Dragons at the problem. Or a Black Spiral leading straight to the Labyrinth has replaced the Pole of Earth.

                But yes, generally one ignores the Realm to play on the Threshold where it's fun.

                Furthermore, why doesn’t that same logic apply to the Realm? If you’re just one of a thousand Essence 2 working your ass off to keep the Realm together from the thousand forces trying to tear it apart why isn’t that the same?
                It is. Which is why the Realm doesn't collapse on session 1. But it's clear the Realm's Dragon-Blooded are not up to the task of saving themselves. Let alone saving Creation. Otherwise the Realm wouldn't be on the brink of collapse and the return of the Solar's would be meaningless. The failure of the Deebs is an integral setting point.

                But you’re also exalted, right?
                Are you? I mean, you should be and WFHW is probably the closest Deebs have got.

                The Scarlet Empress and her hearth single handedly stopped the Balorian crusade, Tepet Arada maneuvered into a position to kill Jochim and Fear Eater in personal combat. That kind of thing does happen in Exalted.
                At massive personal cost.
                And the real world, currently Jared Cushner is the US official in charge of peace in the Middle East and solving the opioid crisis and I don’t think it’s because of his legendary skill at statecraft.
                It's because of nepotism. And sure, I guess nothing stops Mnemon being your mother-in-law so you can ride on her coat-tails. But Jared's story is about Trump.

                Well if I find out in the Threshold that a Deathlord is planning on releasing another even more terrifying Great Contagion, and I look over my shoulder at the Realm, the defenders of Creation as far as I’m concerned, and I see them squabbling and saber rattling at eachother instead of doing their damn job then yeah. I’m going to go back and snap my fingers in front of their faces like a dick and say “Hey hey hey! Assholes, and respected honourable family elders, the god damned world is about to end. Let’s fucking do something about it.”
                So if you're three thousand miles from home and realise the world is going to end, you're going to slog back, try to convince the Deliberative of what you saw, argue that Mnemon should stop fighting the known Anathema in Jiara and put her troops on V'neef ships to sail three thousand miles north and this totally isn't a ploy to weaken her in the coming civil war, it's neccessary to save the Ice Walkers from a new Contagion?

                I'm going to Infallible Messenger my allies, pull my Goremaul out of the nearest bolder and yell "Leroy Jenkins" at the top of my lungs.

                Either that or I just care about my family and don’t like seeing them in a war.
                I think everyone who has lived through any war, civil or otherwise, cared about their family and didn't like seeing them in a war. But they couldn't stop the war.
                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-09-2019, 06:12 PM.


                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                  The Threshold is the setting for me. I'm mot saying the game has to be set in the Scavenger Lands but it has to be someplace dynamic where [I'm/the PCs are] not going to be overshadowed by elder Exalts.

                  I like the idea of a game set in Iscomay (which claims to be descended from the Shogunate so kind of an odd choice), because True Voice isn't in charge. You can realistically make big changes.

                  A game set on the Blessed Isle has a lot of inertia, whether you're a Deeb or a Lunar. Your campaign is likely to be fruitless. No fruit for John. It's not an interesting location to me.

                  (But if you're running a game about finding your way into the Imperial Manse, then count me in -- that's exactly the kind of baller move I want my character to be making. Solar, Lunar, Dragon-Blooded -- yes to all!)

                  Interesting you mention penetrating the Imperial Manse... Our Night Cast did exactly that a few game sessions ago... it was indeed pretty epic... almost as epic as the Circle penetrating Mela's Nail in Pneuma looking for something... Quite a nail biter (no pun intended), but exceedingly fun.


                  The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    I like that just as you're about to take your revenge on Maheka Dazan you see Juggernaut loom into view, mere hours after hearing the rumour of a dreadfleet sailing from Skullstone turning the waters of the West black with blood. It puts weight on what the PCs find important and gives you a reason to explore Creation.
                    I'm not personally a huge fan of that. I like that there's so much that might happen, or is happening, but the full speed urgency kind of kills it. It doesn't give the campaign any breathing room, it takes the PCs away from being all that important in the setting at large, and makes Creation feel oddly lucky that every week it's about to be annihilated but then somebody always comes and saves it.
                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    Plus, as discussed, it's kinda dull. Lunars have been fighting a war of attrition for three quarters of a century and now the Empress is missing (which probably has nothing to do with them) they can't lose.
                    Wha? Can't lose? They've been fighting a war of attrition for thousands of years after the Dragonblooded drove them to the edge of Creation, and the biggest ground they've taken back was during the one-two punch of Great Contagion and Balorian Crusade, which wrecked the Shogunate, and three quarters of a millennium later their plan is still "Don't worry lads, in another thousand years or so, oh you just wait, we'll get them." It seemed like maybe it was working because Realm expansion was slowing, but how is that so certain?

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    It is. Which is why the Realm doesn't collapse on session 1. But it's clear the Realm's Dragon-Blooded are not up to the task of saving themselves. Let alone saving Creation. Otherwise the Realm wouldn't be on the brink of collapse and the return of the Solar's would be meaningless. The failure of the Deebs is an integral setting point.
                    Yeah it's not like the Dragonblooded have ever saved the world before, not from the gross excess of the First Age Solars, not during their thousands of years of stewardship over Creation, definitely not during the Balorian Crusade. The return of the Solars has always been a "Are they here to save the world, or to at last ensure its destruction?" the back of the corebook says that anyway and there's definitely some canon Solars that seem to be leaning in that direction. Exactly half the Solars that come back aren't even the 'good' kind of Solar! On balance the world got just as many new Solar tier destroyers as it did heroes, even if all the gold ones are truly heroic.

                    The Solars are back, and that means that the world will change, that's for sure. Change doesn't mean saved. Perhaps the world will be split apart even further, with Threshold Solar dominions competing with Lunar ones, maybe this return will at last galvanize the Realm into a unified body rather than the Empress's personal nation. With the infighting and engineered backstabbing removed from the equation the Realm becomes a superpower large enough to finally take the entire world. Wherever it settles it's not going to look like it did before, that's the important part.

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    Are you? I mean, you should be and WFHW is probably the closest Deebs have got.
                    What, in your mind, would make the DBs actually exalted? Keeping in mind that the world requires them to be deadlocked in a war where they outnumber their foes 50 to 1.
                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    I'm going to Infallible Messenger my allies, pull my Goremaul out of the nearest bolder and yell "Leroy Jenkins" at the top of my lungs.
                    You know that video ends with Leroy and his entire raid dead because he chose to charge in and not cooperate with his allies right?

                    You are not a high essence Solar, you are a Terrestrial. Your supernatural power puts you head and shoulders above the mortals that you rule, but your greatest strength is not your ability to shoot fire, it is your family. The Dragonblooded didn't kill the Solars and banish the Lunars by challenging them each to single combat and defeating them in a gladiatorial ring. You're not going to kill the Mask of Winters by ploughing through his entire army, running up Juggernaut and personally killing him with one strike. If you're smashing the Mask of Winter's armies and slaying him, you're doing it at the head of your own imperial army or in a surprise assassination while your other forces distract and detain his reinforcements.

                    Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                    I think everyone who has lived through any war, civil or otherwise, cared about their family and didn't like seeing them in a war. But they couldn't stop the war.
                    Well most people aren't members of their country's royal family.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244 View Post
                      In my experience, I've never been part of a Realm Civil War game that hit all three notes.
                      That might be a limitation of your environment rather than inherent to the game.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      It was implausible.
                      The first emperor of the Han Dynasty is implausible, your examples of success in a world of divine heroes are fairly expected.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      How your Essence 2 nobodies tip the scales of ten thousand dragons led by centuries old elders, plausibly, is something I lack the ability to see.
                      The power gap is not that huge, and their age and the habits and conceits that come with it can plausibly be a liability at least as often as a basis for expertise.

                      Give me an example of a written Dynastic elder who comes across as omniscient, rather than riddled with personality flaws and shortcomings in their knowledge and relationships.

                      Consider the example of V'neef, a person whom many could support for the position of Empress over her more experienced and wealthy siblings and similarly ranted people on the basis of that really obscure and specialised branch of political savvy called being more likeable.

                      Are the exploits of players not something that might garner popularity?

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      It's like a D&D game where the King entrusts the safety of the land to four Level 1 bozos who met in a tavern twenty minutes ago.
                      Setting aside the fallacy inherent to dismissing that as a thing monarchs might do, young Dynasts are not random barflies. They are fellow Princes of the Earth who, by virtue of their youthful vitality, lack of firmly established obligations and needing money, naturally fall into the hierarchy of the Scarlet Dynasty as people that can be assigned to field work by elders who are occupied full time with things like running business empires, raising children and managing plots over limited resources against their fellows.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      Spoiler alert
                      That's rather pointless of you're just going to write it out in the open, isn't it?

                      Your reductive approach to the experience of that story does not bode well. If all of the twists and tensions of leading up to a conclusion hold no bake or interest to you, what is even the point of roleplaying?

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      I don't like the idea that PCs are, by virtue of being PCs, better than everyone else.
                      PCs are protagonists. They are presumed to have motives that would pursue a narrative conclusion and are provided with opportunities by an author to capitalise on that will because otherwise a story doesn't happen. This holds with the majority of stories that anybody will tell.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      I like the idea that characters who are better than everyone else are appropriate for PCs.
                      That limits your range, in several respects.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      I prefer a world where other people matter to a world where NPCs exist to make the PCs look good.
                      These things are not incompatible, even considering a read on how other people are describing NPCs that is less disingenuous.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      I can't think of something the PCs can do that any given Kinship of NPCs can't do, and that an experienced Kinship of NPCs couldn't do better.
                      So?

                      Do you think when a firefighter is in the middle of a burning building struggling to get a tried person to safety, they're hung up on the question of whether or not they're the best possible firefighter? Do you think that matters?

                      Or is what matters is that this firefighter is the one who happens to be in that situation at the time, lives are at stake, and they've got to do the best that they can?

                      Do you know what your better kinship is doing? Something in a different part of the world to where your one is designed to be. Maybe they do well, and a story revolves towards them becoming prospective rivals or allies. Maybe they have a chance encounter with the wrong Lunar, and get their heads caved in.

                      That's life.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      Why should the PCs be able to break into the Imperial Manse when Mnemon and V’Neef Bijar can't. And if they can then how in the heck do the PCs break in before them?
                      Mnemon's got a lot on her plate.

                      What does V'neef Bihar have that you don't? And is it something that you can literally, physically take from her?

                      She can't get into the Imperial Manse before you do if you jump her in a dark alley and stab her fifty seven times.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      How come your Solars can break into the Sword of Creation when only one Dragon-Blooded ever managed it in thousands of years? Because you're Solars!
                      And then you find it completely looted, with mocking graffiti left behind by another sightly older, stronger, better looking Solar who got there first.

                      Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                      (And there's no way I'm playing as a Dragon-Blooded who Exalts again as a Solar -- that 3E nonsense flies in the face of everything the Exalted are supposed to be.)
                      Jesus Christ, when are people going to get over the fact that a person commissioned to write a short story was not a nerd for the material?


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Watch me play Dark Souls III (completed)
                      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDtbr08HW8RW4jOHN881YA3yRZBV4lpYw Watch me play Breath of the Wild (updated 12/03)

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        That's life.
                        That happens a surprising amount. I think Jeff Bezos is a pretty damn smart guy, but I think that his impact on the world has been grossly out of proportion to how smart he is. It's not like he's some mega superhuman genius who would have made $115 billion and privately funded his own space program no matter what happened in his life.

                        It's not that luck is the only factor, obviously. You can't just sit around doing nothing and get lucky enough to become one of the wealthiest people in the world. Thankfully as a Dynast one of the biggest hurdles is already behind you, being lucky enough to be born into an incredibly wealthy family. Then add onto that the fact that you get to design your own stats and can max out intelligence, charisma, or dexterity and whatever abilities you want, and now you're born fabulously wealthy and among the smartest/fastest/most skilled in the entire world.

                        Then factor in merit dots, and implicit allies in your PC circle. So now you're now, maybe, one of the best connected people in the entire world, and you have a team of 4 other people who are also among the smartest/fastest/well connectedt ect. A small group of the worlds most skilled, wealthy and well connected people gathering together and working towards a single purpose. The only thing you're missing at that point IS the luck.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Jesus Christ, when are people going to get over the fact that a person commissioned to write a short story was not a nerd for the material?
                          Never.

                          I will never get over the fact that years after it was supposed to be released Onyx Path cared so little for the canon that they allowed this to be published. That they hired someone who wasn't a nerd for the material. That it got through editing. No hate to a writer collecting a pay check, ignoring the source material works for hacks like Dan Abnett and we've all got bills to pay.


                          Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            That might be a limitation of your environment rather than inherent to the game.
                            I haven't claimed otherwise.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Consider the example of V'neef, a person whom many could support for the position of Empress over her more experienced and wealthy siblings and similarly ranted people on the basis of that really obscure and specialised branch of political savvy called being more likeable.
                            And the pure-bred mirror image of her mother, the Empress, and head of her own Dynastic household.

                            Mrs. Morret who runs a pie shop in the Imperial City is perfectly likable but she's not a contender for the throne.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Your reductive approach to the experience of that story does not bode well. If all of the twists and tensions of leading up to a conclusion hold no bake or interest to you, what is even the point of roleplaying?
                            It's interesting because it's plausible. The Karstark's winning and putting Hot Pie on the throne is not plausible. It's plausible because the most powerful faction who has the largest kingdom, the most supernatural allies and the best claim eventually wins, despite setbacks. It's House Mnemon winning after a long hard campaign.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            PCs are protagonists. They are presumed to have motives that would pursue a narrative conclusion and are provided with opportunities by an author to capitalise on that will because otherwise a story doesn't happen. This holds with the majority of stories that anybody will tell.
                            I like my NPC Exalted to be the protagonists of their own stories.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            That limits your range, in several respects.
                            Is Luke Skywalker a Jedi because he's the protagonist or is he the protagonist because he's a Jedi. If I'm limited to interesting stories that make sense then I embrace that limitation.

                            Can a random farm boy destroy an evil empire's super weapon?
                            Can a mystic Jedi knight, born of the messiah of prophecy, trained by the experienced hero of the last war, provided with the best starfighter in the galaxy and supported by an armada of rebels with their own motivations blow up that same weapon after a team of heroes sacrifice their lives to tell him its only weakness synchs with the training drills he's been running since childhood?
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            These things are not incompatible, even considering a read on how other people are describing NPCs that is less disingenuous.
                            Then we loop round to why the PCs are the only actors who matter and why their narrative as protagonists has such a disproportionate effect on the plot.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Do you think when a firefighter is in the middle of a burning building struggling to get a tried person to safety, they're hung up on the question of whether or not they're the best possible firefighter? Do you think that matters?
                            Not at all. And if your Kinship wants to save people from burning buildings, beat on rogue little gods and save villages from Blood Apes then go be king of the moment.

                            The average firefighter rescuing someone is a plausible story. The average firefighter putting out the entire blaze when none of the other firefighters on the scene could is not.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            What does V'neef Bihar have that you don't? And is it something that you can literally, physically take from her?
                            Literally a lifetime of study and Charms.

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            And then you find it completely looted, with mocking graffiti left behind by another sightly older, stronger, better looking Solar who got there first.
                            Is it plausible, is it interesting, does it give the PCs agency?
                            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                            Wha? Can't lose? It seemed like maybe it was working because Realm expansion was slowing, but how is that so certain?
                            Because the Empress is gone, the Caul is all but fallen, the Wyld Hunt is stretched to breaking point, the Realm legions are recalled for civil war, the Sword of Creation is dormant and the Realm is disintergrating.

                            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                            What, in your mind, would make the DBs actually exalted? Keeping in mind that the world requires them to be deadlocked in a war where they outnumber their foes 50 to 1.
                            Does it?

                            Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey View Post
                            Well most people aren't members of their country's royal family.
                            And yet, wars still happen even though royal families exist.
                            Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-10-2019, 04:33 AM.


                            Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey
                              What makes your Lunar PCs the most important players with elders like Leviathan and Ma-Ha-Suchi around?
                              Originally posted by JohnDoe244
                              Honestly? That's one of the reasons I don't like Lunars
                              Why does this matter? My Lunar PCs are the most important Exalts in their area of the world. Our Solar PCs too. Who cares if Raksi's really important in the East when my game is in the North-East. The only local elder is True Voice (400 years old) who's failing at her goals anyway.

                              In terms of the Realm, you don't have to be "the most important" to have a fun game or achieve your aims. Maybe Mnemon is most important, so you get other houses to ally and fight her. Or maybe you're on her side and help her to victory and then take all the ministries.

                              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey
                              That’s kind of dodgy, what if the Solars who are stopping Jacinct fail? If they don’t all succeed doesn’t the doom that gets through just kill the world?
                              Not all Dooms actually destroy the world, they may just screw parts of it up.

                              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey
                              Or what if like two of them fail and you’ve got Malfeas growing out of Nexus while the West falls to the control of Deathlords because you were in the south blocking a Wyld Crusade?
                              Sounds like cool plot to me. By the time you've beaten this Raksha crusade, your players are probably up for something different. So invading the Scavenger Lands which is now a demon-infested hellhole could be cool and different.

                              Originally posted by DrLoveMonkey
                              That happens a surprising amount. I think Jeff Bezos is a pretty damn smart guy, but I think that his impact on the world has been grossly out of proportion to how smart he is.
                              I'd argue his apparent impact is way less than his actual impact. Amazon isn't one man. He's hired tons of people, a lot of his money was made by others, as were the ideas that made that money. He's just the man at the top so he gets the money and the credit. Not to say he hasn't had an impact, but our system tends to ascribe more importance to tech billionaires than they deserve.

                              Some people talked about Game of Thrones and the Starks. If we take, say, Bran Stark, a lot of the things that got him to where he got was his family members. A Dynast PC has family members. The top Dynasts probably include some of your family members (because 90% of PCs in Dynast games are related to a House Head somehow).


                              So, on the one hand I agree with John that the people who rise to power are there because of particular factors, allies, power groups, etc. But surely... that's okay? That makes dynastic games fine? You're playing a scion of a rich house, you have allies and mentors with great resources and power, you've been trained from birth. So... that's what the game's about? So doesn't this contradict the point about it not making sense, because actually it does?

                              For example, to paraphrase, John mentioned "why isn't V'neef the one rising to power? Or Sesus Negezzer?"
                              Well in our game V'neef was one PCs mum, Ejava married that guy, and another PC married Sesus Negezzer. So in a sense they were rising to power, and in a sense the PCs were, because they were working together. That's how nobles work.
                              And it ended with one PC being Prime Minister, one being Ambassador to Autocthon, one being head of the All-Seeing Eye, one being Supreme Admiral, etc, while NPCs were also involved in other positions (V'neef was Head of the Inquisition, for example).

                              So I see no issue with the PCs rising to power if they ally and scheme cleverly, align themselves with the right allies against the wrong allies, direct people where they want, etc.
                              It's not an easy game to win. It's way harder than "Solars seize control of an iron-age kingdom by beating everyone up" which is a pretty easy game.
                              But that's what Dynastic games are about.

                              Although on the other hand:
                              Originally posted by Isator Levi
                              The first emperor of the Han Dynasty is implausible,
                              Indeed! You never can be sure what will happen!
                              Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 09-10-2019, 06:58 AM.


                              I run... Lunars: The Apocalypse! Exalted 3rd edition. Fimbulwinter is upon the world as an Ice Age begins, and only six young Lunar heroes have a chance of saving humanity.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                Why does this matter? My Lunar PCs are the most important Exalts in their area of the world. Our Solar PCs too. Who cares if Raksi's really important in the East when my game is in the North-East. The only local elder is True Voice (400 years old) who's failing at her goals anyway.
                                This I like.

                                The PCs need to have agency. They need to be able to make decisions and those decisions have to matter. A failing ancilla doesn't provide the same obstacle to a Circle than a dedicated elder queen and her army of supporters. If anything it's a hook the PCs can use.

                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                Some people talked about Game of Thrones and the Starks. If we take, say, Bran Stark, a lot of the things that got him to where he got was his family members. A Dynast PC has family members. The top Dynasts probably include some of your family members (because 90% of PCs in Dynast games are related to a House Head somehow).

                                So, on the one hand I agree with John that the people who rise to power are there because of particular factors, allies, power groups, etc. But surely... that's okay? That makes dynastic games fine? You're playing a scion of a rich house, you have allies and mentors with great resources and power, you've been trained from birth. So... that's what the game's about? So doesn't this contradict the point about it not making sense, because actually it does?
                                I have no problem with this. So long as you're buying Influence/Allies/Backing/Retainer/Mentor to represent it.

                                You don't "just get it" because you're a Dynast.

                                Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                                For example, to paraphrase, John mentioned "why isn't V'neef the one rising to power? Or Sesus Negezzer?"
                                Well in our game V'neef was one PCs mum, Ejava married that guy, and another PC married Sesus Negezzer. So in a sense they were rising to power, and in a sense the PCs were, because they were working together. That's how nobles work.
                                And it ended with one PC being Prime Minister, one being Ambassador to Autocthon, one being head of the All-Seeing Eye, one being Supreme Admiral, etc, while NPCs were also involved in other positions (V'neef was Head of the Inquisition, for example).

                                So I see no issue with the PCs rising to power if they ally and scheme cleverly, align themselves with the right allies against the wrong allies, direct people where they want, etc.
                                It's not an easy game to win. It's way harder than "Solars seize control of an iron-age kingdom by beating everyone up" which is a pretty easy game.
                                But that's what Dynastic games are about.
                                And I've got no problem with this either. It's halfway plausible.

                                But I'd rather be the Solar conquering his own Iron Age kingdom. As you say, that's easier.

                                But that's a personal preference. If you want to play Jared Kushner with elemental superpowers then more power to you.

                                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                The first emperor of the Han Dynasty is implausible,
                                Han Gaozu reminds me of the Scarlet Empress in many ways.
                                Last edited by JohnDoe244; 09-10-2019, 08:16 AM.


                                Hi, I'm JohnDoe244. My posts represent my opinions, not facts.

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